Can almost anyone pull themselves up by their own bootstraps in America?

[Hardkill]

Many people in the US, especially those who are Republican or conservative, always say that if you don't have a job or don't have a house or aren't as successful or as wealthy as you want to be, then blame yourself. While there is a lot of truth to that, at the same time I know that at the same time that the whole system has definitely always been rigged against racial minorities, the poor, the working class, and even the middle class. 

Then again, all of these successful self-gurus, including Leo himself, seem to imply that almost anyone in any developed part of the world can become a millionaire, successfully run a business, or become a successful highly-educated professional, own a good home, be well-off with a family of your own with enough hard work, self-education, taking full ownership, personal responsibility, being a fighter, being a creator, having patience and discipline, having a strong work ethic, having a positive and strong mindset, constantly putting in the effort yourself on self-actualization for life, etc. 

Exceptions to this include homeless individuals who are mentally ill, people who are dying, victims who have been kidnapped or enslaved illegally, or other people with severe psychological or physical disabilities that literally prevent them from living any kind of normal functioning life.

If all of that is true then why do we actually even need to worry about the growing economic inequality in America? Why does America need to bother to seriously re structure its economy, education system, and laws, etc. if almost anyone in America can just put in the work themselves to get from rags to riches?

[aurum]

Both lens are correct, and they’re both incomplete.

Yes, we have a degree of individual autonomy in our lives. And, we also are massively influenced by our environment, upbringing, etc.

The problem I see is when people get dogmatic about either of these perspectives.

In America, you actually do have quite a lot of individual autonomy to shape your destiny relative to other parts of the world. But at the same time there is also corruption and racism and trauma and geography and general rigging of the system.

So everyone’s situation will be different. The question for me is whether or not your perspective is adaptive or maladaptive to the situation you are in.

[Roy]

Unless you have some major impediment in your environment (or personal), there really is no excuse. We live in the most abundant, advanced, wealthiest time in human history.

[Hardkill]

@aurum @Roy

Yeah, I am with both of you on those points.

That's why it kinda makes me wonder sometimes if there is any need or urgency for anymore liberal or progressive economic policies for those who are not wealthy. 

Do you think that the growing economic equality in the US needs to be fixed?

Edited April 29, 2023 by Hardkill

[PenguinPablo]

Pretty much their is an infinity amount of avenues that either exist already or can be created. I'm not going to sit here and lecture someone and say they're lazy because that is a massive and ridiculous oversimplification. But yes, pretty much anyone can will themselves to whatever life they want in America. Most of the not being able to make it comes down to trauma, bad programming, not having the right information, poor diet that leads to bad headspace, and so on and so forth. 

I won't say it's easy. But anything is possible.

The grass is greener wherever you water it  

[MarkKol]

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

run a business, or become a successful highly-educated professional, own a good home, be well-off with a family of your own with enough hard work, self-education, taking full ownership, personal responsibility, being a fighter, being a creator, having patience and discipline, having a strong work ethic, having a positive and strong mindset, constantly putting in the effort yourself on self-actualization for life

Doing that doesn’t guarantee that you will succeed, but not doing it certainty means that you won’t.

People move to America from foreign countries and they still manage, what excuse do you have as a native?

It’s possible, not for everyone though. Not everyone can be rich. It’s up to the Government to come up with scalable solutions that can truly raise the standard for everyone in the country.

[Roy]

11 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Do you think that the growing economic equality in the US needs to be fixed?

Obviously, but I think the problem is so corrupt and egregious and woven into American culture that the only thing that will fix it is violent revolution.

It's a tumor on a leg. The limb can't be saved, we're gonna have to amputate the entire thing.

[aurum]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:45 PM, Hardkill said:

That's why it kinda makes me wonder sometimes if there is any need or urgency for anymore liberal or progressive economic policies for those who are not wealthy. 

Do you think that the growing economic equality in the US needs to be fixed?

There is a need for progressive economics policies. Progressives are correct that the middle class is getting hallowed out. This is not healthy for the overall system. Too much wealth polarization creates absurdities and instability.

That said, I don’t think a socialist utopia where everyone is completely financially equal is a worth while goal. Some degree of wealth inequality is going to be inevitable and probably beneficial.

What we should be concerned with is:

1) Raising the overall standards of living

2) Raising people’s economic ability to pursue higher consciousness pursuits

3) Constantly maintaining balance in the system so the distribution of wealth doesn’t polarize too much to either extreme (inequality or equality)

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

There is a need for progressive economics policies. Progressives are correct that the middle class is getting hallowed out. This is not healthy for the overall system. Too much wealth polarization creates absurdities and instability.

That said, I don’t think a socialist utopia where everyone is completely financially equal is a worth while goal. Some degree of wealth inequality is going to be inevitable and probably beneficial.

What we should be concerned with is:

1) Raising the overall standards of living

2) Raising people’s economic ability to pursue higher consciousness pursuits

3) Constantly maintaining balance in the system so the distribution of wealth doesn’t polarize too much to either extreme (inequality or equality)

I agree with that, but just to play Devil’s advocate, what about the argument made by the right-wing in America, which is that “if want to improve whatever situation you’re in, then don’t depend on the government to save you. If you want to improve your standard of living and/or improve your level of education, or have the opportunity to focus on higher conscious pursuits, then  it’s your responsibility to achieve those things yourself. You have to power to do all yourself and by asking for the right help from those in private sector.”

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

don’t depend on the government to save you

This is exactly it. You can't depend on any person, group, organization, or government to "save" you. Perhaps you'll get lucky, like inheriting something, winning the lottery, or some new law applying to you. But I wouldn't count on it.

Sadly there are injustices and inequalities in the world, and it's good to have people fighting for them. But putting all your eggs in one basket hoping that you'll get some big payout from somewhere just because you think it would be "fair" is almost selfish and delusional.

While people are sitting around complaining and blaming everyone else and their environment for their circumstances, there are other people out there putting in the work, sacrificing, doing extra hours, going to work even when sick, trying new business ideas, starting a side hustle. All so they can improve their value, build their business, help their org be more competitive, and increase their skillset.

In the end all it comes down to figuring out how to convince other people to give you money. Hopefully doing it in a way where you're providing them something they want or is needed in the world.

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Roy said:

This is exactly it. You can't depend on any person, group, organization, or government to "save" you. Perhaps you'll get lucky, like inheriting something, winning the lottery, or some new law applying to you. But I wouldn't count on it.

Sadly there are injustices and inequalities in the world, and it's good to have people fighting for them. But putting all your eggs in one basket hoping that you'll get some big payout from somewhere just because you think it would be "fair" is almost selfish and delusional.

While people are sitting around complaining and blaming everyone else and their environment for their circumstances, there are other people out there putting in the work, sacrificing, doing extra hours, going to work even when sick, trying new business ideas, starting a side hustle. All so they can improve their value, build their business, help their org be more competitive, and increase their skillset.

In the end all it comes down to figuring out how to convince other people to give you money. Hopefully doing it in a way where you're providing them something they want or is needed in the world.

Okay, so in that case why does the government need to fix the economic inequality problem?

[Roy]

10 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, so in that case why does the government need to fix the economic inequality problem?

Because the entire idea and purpose of a (successful) government is to represent and advocate for the will of the people. Most people are sick of the inequality and raping of the middle/lower class.

The government has to do it because it has the actual power to pull it off, no other entity can solve the problem.

[Jwayne]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:22 AM, Hardkill said:

Many people in the US, especially those who are Republican or conservative, always say that if you don't have a job or don't have a house or aren't as successful or as wealthy as you want to be, then blame yourself. While there is a lot of truth to that, at the same time I know that at the same time that the whole system has definitely always been rigged against racial minorities, the poor, the working class, and even the middle class. 

Then again, all of these successful self-gurus, including Leo himself, seem to imply that almost anyone in any developed part of the world can become a millionaire, successfully run a business, or become a successful highly-educated professional, own a good home, be well-off with a family of your own with enough hard work, self-education, taking full ownership, personal responsibility, being a fighter, being a creator, having patience and discipline, having a strong work ethic, having a positive and strong mindset, constantly putting in the effort yourself on self-actualization for life, etc. 

Exceptions to this include homeless individuals who are mentally ill, people who are dying, victims who have been kidnapped or enslaved illegally, or other people with severe psychological or physical disabilities that literally prevent them from living any kind of normal functioning life.

If all of that is true then why do we actually even need to worry about the growing economic inequality in America? Why does America need to bother to seriously re structure its economy, education system, and laws, etc. if almost anyone in America can just put in the work themselves to get from rags to riches?

'Rags to riches' is vulgar Marxist propaganda from the opposite direction - it is class warfare of the rich against the poor. Blame the working clsss for their own structural exploitation. Its a kind of intitutional gaslighting, actually.

There used to be a strong labour movement in the United States in the early part of the 20th century (and before) and they won important achievements for their working conditions, rights and wages. They did it by collectivizing and mobilizing together for their self-interest against the forces institutionally incentivized to keep them poor (i.e. owners, robber barons, legislation condoning oppressive working conditions).

'Rags to riches' is meant to dissuade people from that kind of radical social action. Its intended to keep you atomized from others. To keep you from posing a threat to injust and unfair institutional realities.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Jwayne

[aurum]

3 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I agree with that, but just to play Devil’s advocate, what about the argument made by the right-wing in America, which is that “if want to improve whatever situation you’re in, then don’t depend on the government to save you. If you want to improve your standard of living and/or improve your level of education, or have the opportunity to focus on higher conscious pursuits, then  it’s your responsibility to achieve those things yourself. You have to power to do all yourself and by asking for the right help from those in private sector.”

Stupidity.

There is nothing that functions in modern society without the government. Even your ability to take personal responsibility for your life requires a highly effective State. 

This idea that you shouldn’t depend on the public sector is both impossible and hypocritical. Right-wingers depend on the government every second of their life.

Of course, there is a limit. You cannot and should not depend on the government for everything. Some balance must be struck. But a lot of right-wingers are in denial of how badly we need government. 

[integral]

It depends on what you mean by pull up? If you mean working full time to live in an apartment and eat 3 meals a day then yes. if you deviate from this path and say, have 3 kids, buy a car on credit, participate in what everyone is trying to sell you, incur any chronic health problems that need constant medical treatment (financial suicide in the US), then no. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by integral

[Hardkill]

5 hours ago, Roy said:

Because the entire idea and purpose of a (successful) government is to represent and advocate for the will of the people. Most people are sick of the inequality and raping of the middle/lower class.

The government has to do it because it has the actual power to pull it off, no other entity can solve the problem.

 

3 hours ago, aurum said:

Stupidity.

There is nothing that functions in modern society without the government. Even your ability to take personal responsibility for your life requires a highly effective State. 

This idea that you shouldn’t depend on the public sector is both impossible and hypocritical. Right-wingers depend on the government every second of their life.

Of course, there is a limit. You cannot and should not depend on the government for everything. Some balance must be struck. But a lot of right-wingers are in denial of how badly we need government. 

So, not everyone who is either poor or middle class or working class is able to become financially well off without sufficient intervention and regulation from the government?

Edited May 1, 2023 by Hardkill

[zurew]

On 2023. 04. 29. at 5:22 AM, Hardkill said:

Then again, all of these successful self-gurus, including Leo himself, seem to imply that almost anyone in any developed part of the world can become a millionaire, successfully run a business, or become a successful highly-educated professional, own a good home, be well-off with a family of your own with enough hard work, self-education, taking full ownership, personal responsibility, being a fighter, being a creator, having patience and discipline, having a strong work ethic, having a positive and strong mindset, constantly putting in the effort yourself on self-actualization for life, etc. 

There is a difference between giving advice to an individual vs doing politics / analysing what the structural and systemic problems are and how could we make the world better. If I talk to an individual there is almost no utility in talking about all the systemic problems that makes his life more hard or worse (I can acknowledge all that to be emphatetic, but that won't solve his problems and won't give him any tools that he can use to solve his problems), the best thing I can do is to give him a toolkit that he can use, so that he can make his life better.

On the other hand, we obviously shouldn't forget about the systemic issues. Its very clear already (based on a lot of empirical data), that if you grow up in a harsh environment,  you will have a much much lower chance and a much harder time to become a successful human being. Is there still a possibility that you can pull it off? Yes, but the question shouldn't be about whether it is possible, but should be about this: Given all the data about your past and current circumstances, how likely it is that you can pull it off? Do you have a 30-20-10% chance or you have a 0.002% chance? After that question we can also ask: is it reasonable to  hold to the same standard two different person: one person who has 0.002% chance and the other dude who is now successful, but he had 30% chance? Then after all that thinking we can come to the conclusion that it is very reasonable to consciously and carefully and thoughtfully build such structures and evironment that will produce better, more concious, more intelligent people in general.

[Danioover9000]

@Hardkill

On 2023-04-29 at 4:22 AM, Hardkill said:

Many people in the US, especially those who are Republican or conservative, always say that if you don't have a job or don't have a house or aren't as successful or as wealthy as you want to be, then blame yourself. While there is a lot of truth to that, at the same time I know that at the same time that the whole system has definitely always been rigged against racial minorities, the poor, the working class, and even the middle class. 

Then again, all of these successful self-gurus, including Leo himself, seem to imply that almost anyone in any developed part of the world can become a millionaire, successfully run a business, or become a successful highly-educated professional, own a good home, be well-off with a family of your own with enough hard work, self-education, taking full ownership, personal responsibility, being a fighter, being a creator, having patience and discipline, having a strong work ethic, having a positive and strong mindset, constantly putting in the effort yourself on self-actualization for life, etc. 

Exceptions to this include homeless individuals who are mentally ill, people who are dying, victims who have been kidnapped or enslaved illegally, or other people with severe psychological or physical disabilities that literally prevent them from living any kind of normal functioning life.

If all of that is true then why do we actually even need to worry about the growing economic inequality in America? Why does America need to bother to seriously re structure its economy, education system, and laws, etc. if almost anyone in America can just put in the work themselves to get from rags to riches?

   I believe if you've got the vision for your life, commitment, and access to resources, and train towards it, then you'll achieve some success.

[UnbornTao]

If not in the United States, where else?

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

21 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

If not in the United States, where else?

   Canada, UK, EU countries, China, Korea, Japan, even places near Switzerland and Norway you could potentially bootstrap yourself. America is a bit overrated with bootstrapping now.