Understanding

[M A J I]

The more you Know the Less you Understand - Lao Tzu

There is also: Overstanding and Innerstanding.

 

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, M A J I said:

The more you Know the Less you Understand - Lao Tzu

There is also: Overstanding and Innerstanding.

 

The less than you know, the more that you understand. Until you don't know nothing, you couldn't understand everything. 

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, josemar said:

It's not clear to me what you consider the definition of understanding, and how it relates (if it does) to mental concepts

 

understanding is, for example, realizing that there are no limits between you and others, and that what you do to others you do to yourself. you might understand this right? how do you understand it? because someone has told you, or because you have come to that conclusion thinking? no, it is a direct understanding. then the logical mind structure, formule with concepts, separates the others/your, act, consequence, and then it loose it's reality, you don't understand it anymore. The real understanding comes from beyond the logical mind 

the logical mind can understand how a foot fits in a shoe of its size but not in a smaller one, but it cannot understand infinity, since it is limited, finite. the mind that understands everything is infinite, and is reality itself 

the conceptual mind is the same infinite mind but limited, to be able to handle the limited. what is limited is appearance, and so is the conceptual mind. It's the source of confusion

Edited April 29, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[M A J I]

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The less than you know, the more that you understand. Until you don't know nothing, you couldn't understand everything. 

Great way to put it as well ?

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, M A J I said:

Great way to put it as well ?

it depends on the meaning you give it, for me knowing has a cumulative connotation and understanding qualitative, but maybe lao tse sees it the other way around 

Btw tao te King is a book where a person wrote his understandings about existence

Edited April 29, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[M A J I]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

it depends on the meaning you give it, for me knowing has a cumulative connotation and understanding qualitative, but maybe lao tse sees it the other way around 

Btw tao te King is a book where a person wrote his understandings about existence

I believe what he meant was the more we flood our minds with knowledge, the more we are caught up in the thought/seeking and totally forgetting the understanding of Being itself, which sits at the root of what everyone is ultimately seeking.

Tao Te Ching is one of the Greatest books of Truth In my eyes. I think its the only book/bible you will ever need. I continue to carry it through my travels as a reminder, it always brings me back home.

Many people say Lao Tzu rarely spoke, people just recorded his life and way of being and passed it down. I believe others wrote the words based on their own observations of this Enlightened mountain hermit/sage.

Edited April 29, 2023 by M A J I

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, M A J I said:

Great way to put it as well ?

@M A J I @Breakingthewall as you both see - it is in not knowing that true understanding is found.  For understanding is not found in the conceptual realm.  It can be found, but by no one.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, M A J I said:

Many people say Lao Tzu rarely spoke, people just recorded his life and way of being and passed it down

I read that maybe he didn't exist, but he's like a legendary figure created to bring together fragments of wisdom from various masters. anyway, the book is very inspiring 

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

For understanding is not found in the conceptual realm.  It can be found, but by no one.

I think that true understanding is reality understanding itself. reality perfectly understand itself, but it has stop doing because it is immersed in a finite experience in which it is interacting with an apparent exterior. in order to do this, he transforms his infinite understanding into finite understanding. There are people in whom this transformation is completely solid, without fissures. others in which it has not been completely carried out and navigate between two waters. they need time to understand the finite because their mind is still open to the infinite. this normally produces suffering, but it can be directed towards full understanding.

[M A J I]

Indeed ?

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Who talked about phenomena or imagination?

You do, constantly. It's always "the hallelujah" or the "horrible abyss", which you don't seem to understand are dualities within the dream. You don't have to ride the 5-Me0 roller coaster to fully appreciate the apparently ordinary experiences in life with perpetual lucidity and light.

Sorry for my bluntness today, but it's time to cut through the bullshit. Sometimes it's necessary.

[Breakingthewall]

43 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You do, constantly. It's always "the hallelujah" or the "horrible abyss", which you don't seem to understand are dualities within the dream. You don't have to ride the 5-Me0 roller coaster to fully appreciate the apparently ordinary experiences in life with perpetual lucidity and light.

Sorry for my bluntness today, but it's time to cut through the bullshit. Sometimes it's necessary.

You don't understand. psychedelics and especially 5 meo take you to a completely altered state of consciousness in which there is no perception/perceiver duality anymore. the psychedelic path begins with bad trips, where for example you experience the "horrible abyss", and you can also have unity trips, absolute love, "hallelujah". You don't make these trips to realize things and then add them to your mental baggage, but for the change itself, which makes your energetic body more plastic each time, and this happen very fast. What I said 1 month ago is obsolete now. you completely misinterpret what I say out of lack of understanding, since you avoid understanding. for you there is only relative/absolute, preferring the absolute for its character of happiness and rejecting the relative for its character of suffering. You are stuck in a duality of avoiding the "bad" in favor of the "good". the psychedelic path would make you see that there is no duality, that the relative is the absolute, and understand deeper how and why this experience is occurring, what you are. but since you prefer to stay in your place and avoid threats to your absolute happiness, it seems that you will never take that step. Anyway, if it makes you happy that the absolute shines through you and that's enough for you, perfect, but I insist: you don't understand the psychedelic path. you misjudge it 

A question: why not be open-minded? there is nothing to lose with it

Edited April 29, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Yimpa]

I think you two lovebirds need to merge… BreakingtheMoksha 

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I think you two lovebirds need to merge… BreakingtheMoksha 

??yes, but first moksha must break his rejection and prejudice and try to really understand, reading what is said with an open mind, not with the intention of finding points that reaffirm his thesis. But seems impossible. I feel fear and rejection, need to be right and the other wrong, defense against the heretic ?

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

for you there is only relative/absolute, preferring the absolute for its character of happiness and rejecting the relative for its character of suffering. You are stuck in a duality of avoiding the "bad" in favor of the "good".

You don't have to reject the relative. You created it for a reason. It's phenomenal, just don't identify with it.

Dualities are illusion, and despite the absolute essence of the illusion, its experience within the dream will never be the same quality when it identifies as the illusion compared to when it realizes itself.

I am so open-minded that I disidentify with the mind (almost) entirely. It's ok, I wish you the best and take no offense.

[Yimpa]

Breakingthewall, Moksha, and Yimpa are all imagined by Consciousness.

This is the basic principle that needs to be understood if you want to explore any further. 

Nobody is forcing you to do this, though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

You don't have to reject the relative. You created it for a reason. It's phenomenal, just don't identify with it.

Dualities are illusion, and despite the absolute essence of the illusion, its experience within the dream will never be the same quality when it identifies as the illusion compared to when it realizes itself.

I am so open-minded that I disidentify with the mind (almost) entirely. It's ok, I wish you the best and take no offense.

I am not offended at all, but I perceive a certain distortion in you. Since you are sincere, I will be too. let's see, you say that you realize the absolute and that the absolute is immutable and pure love. ok, I understand that from the silence of the mind, without any obstacle, one realizes the joy of existing and the suffering disappears, since it is something that the ego creates. but tell me, how did you realize your infinite nature? Have you become absolute, infinite, encompassing everything? So, have you realized that everything is inside of you? Are you really aware of what death means? that the entire cosmos is in your mind and there is nothing else? that there is no "outside"? Have you really seen this without psychedelics, or have you read it and integrated it into your idiosyncrasy? Are you sure you're not fooling yourself? because it is extremely easy to delude yourself into thinking that you have realized things that if you are truly honest with yourself, you have conceptually integrated. Your stiffness makes me think that's the case 

Or maybe your mental suffering has been so great that you deny the mind as if it were something negative, in favor of silence, the only positive thing? both have their place. The mind is a great tool and must be used, but it has to trascend it's limitations, that's all. And please, don't tell me again: when you realize the absolute , you will see. It sounds like a defense. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

You don't have to reject the relative. You created it for a reason. It's phenomenal, just don't identify with it.

The "relative" is what existence is. Here, now, this. There is nothing else. The only relative thing is the interpretation, that's false, nothing. Silence your mind and see the movement, the direct experience. That is the absolute, and it's infinite depth. There is no phenomenal vs absolute. There is interpretation vs absolute, and even that, the interpretation is just another movement of the absolute. You are alone, here, now, for the eternity, and that's it. And it's perfection. This is not ego, it's direct understanding. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Yimpa]

24 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The mind is a great tool and must be used, but it has to trascend it's limitations, that's all. 

Limitations are transcended when you stop convincing yourself that Mind needs to be a certain way.

Takes the phrase, “Mind your own business” to whole new dimension. 

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Limitations are transcended when you stop convincing yourself that Mind needs to be a certain way.

Takes the phrase, “Mind your own business” to whole new dimension. 

The mind must be a certain way, at least for spirituality: free of any limitations. If not, you are going to fool yourself

[Moksha]

@Breakingthewall Damnit, just when I'm done pounding my head against the unbreakable wall, you have to go and ask a sincere question. 

I will be plain and direct.

"I perceive a certain distortion in you."

As long as there is any identification with mind, there will always be some distortion. I haven't completely dissolved my demons yet, but they are wispier now than they used to be. I am far more free than I ever remember being.

"Have you become absolute, infinite, encompassing everything? So, have you realized that everything is inside of you? Are you really aware of what death means? that the entire cosmos is in your mind and there is nothing else? that there is no "outside"? Have you really seen this without psychedelics, or have you read it and integrated it into your idiosyncrasy?"

I haven't become the absolute. The absolute within me directly realizes itself. I know that the cosmos, time, space, individuality, birth, death, and change are all imagination. The absolute is the essence of these, but its true nature is beyond them. Identifying with phenomena is slavery. Realizing the absolute beyond phenomena is freedom.

"Are you sure you're not fooling yourself? because it is extremely easy to delude yourself into thinking that you have realized things that if you are truly honest with yourself, you have conceptually integrated. Your stiffness makes me think that's the case"

I'm sure. I don't ask you to believe me or not, I only encourage you to look for yourself.

"Or maybe your mental suffering has been so great that you deny the mind as if it were something negative, in favor of silence, the only positive thing? both have their place. The mind is a great tool and must be used, but it has to trascend it's limitations, that's all. And please, don't tell me again: when you realize the absolute , you will see. It sounds like a defense."

The conditioned mind is hell. The unconditioned mind is beautiful. Love transmutes the former into the latter.

"how did you realize your infinite nature?"

This is the true question. It happened when my suffering became great enough for the absolute within to surrender its pursuit of fulfillment outside of itself. I stopped trying to escape, and in the process I found truth. I was at rock bottom before I was finally willing to loosen the grip on my fears and desires.

The tiniest particle of absolute truth suddenly appeared, and has never left. It is a speck, but being absolute, it is unconditional. It has become the center of my being, and the source of my freedom.

I'm not going to say more than that, but it is sincere and I hope it helps in some way.