How do you handle dishonesty in others?

[theleelajoker]

What I mean is dishonesty in form of self deception, not a straightforward lie. Not a "yes" when people clearly and consciously know that the answer is "no". But rather a "subconscious lying". People speak "their truth" but they are still lying. 

So often, this is happening: People tell me things and my intuition tells me that "sth is off". What they are saying contradicts what I know about this person and situation. And/or they are fumbling sth with their hands, they shift position, their voice becomes strange, eyes move away etc. EVERYTHING but their words tell me that they are uncomfortable with what they are saying, and it simply screams "lie" into my face. I can clearly see that what people are saying and what people are feeling are not aligned.

My response is threefold:

1. Mostly, I just let it go. Some form of self-deception is probably healthy and it's their life, not mine.
2. Sometimes, I respond with a hint or a comment. This is the case if I believe that I observe a self-deception that might be very harmful for this person in the long run. Depends on the person, context and our relationship. I am doing this less and less - people tend to hate the messenger and not the message
3. Other times, hearing some kind of lies triggers me so much that I feel the need to respond and to confront. This is the case when I am personally involved in the lie. For instance, people change a story about how I behaved or what I have said etc. with "bad intent". Eg they gaslight or they make me look worse while making them look better. They lie subconsciously but they nevertheless do it. The reason is typically 1) to preserve their self image or 2) to avoid consequences that might arise when telling the truth and the result . When I really confront it, then I typically experience a process of " denial first stage - denial second stage - a little but of truth - a little bit more truth - and finally a "OK now there is the truth"  

My problem now is the following:

The more I meditate, the more I work on myself, the more honest I am to myself - the more lies I (believe to) recognize and the stronger becomes my urge to call out people's bullshit.  I see it with my friends, family, partner. Staying calm does not feel right for me in case no 3 but it gets really exhausting to again and again fight for the truth.

Moreover, I feel like distancing myself from people that do lie a lot. But where to go? Who is left then? I have the feeling that only a very small amount of people make a real effort to be honest.  Facing the truth is painful, at least at the beginning of this process. There are very few people that I know that have a "healthy amount" of self deception.

Also,with such lies, I feel like there are two parts in people: Part 1, I call it the "surface part", feels attacked and hates me for calling out their bullshit. But there is also Part 2, I the "finally part". This part is super happy that finally someone lifts the veil of self-deception. This part says: "Finally, actions and feelings are aligned! No more tension, no more fake bullshit, finally I am free! And you see, once you did let go, it was not so bad at all?!"

Right now, I feel torn between actions. Calling out those lies frees myself and also the "finally part" of others of so much tension. But if I do it too often, people will hate me at some point. Finding new friends that have a similar level of honesty has proven difficult. If I don't do it or even if I pick my situations carefully, I create tension in me. I feel like saying sth but I don't and it simply does not feel right to stay silent.

And finally, especially in case no 3, I feel very much disrespected about the lies. But can I really be mad at people for these self-deceptions? I mean, we all do it, me including it is just a matter of how much and with which intent we do it.  When can we be held responsible, and when not? Can you be mad at people for these lies or gaslighting or should I take the high-road and just let them be? And maybe lying is just part of being human? "There is no truth without a lie" and so on. I am really struggling with these questions right now.

 

Opinions are welcome, curious to hear how you see this topic and how you handle those situations...

Edited April 25, 2023 by theleelajoker

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

curious to hear how you see this topic and how you handle those situations...

If something triggeres me, first thing i do is observe the feelings and allow them to be Fully. It can be really difficult at first to tame that hot fire energy. But slowly if you do this, the energy begins to transform itself and you begin to notice a new response to the situation. A response that comes from calm presence not from triggered ego. That response will have much more positive impact. 

Responses from ego amplyfies ego in another person aswell. So he becomes even more blind.

Responses from presence amplify presence in another being. And that way there's more space, more openess, so it's easier to have a discussion without creating conflict. 

The key to all this is being able to allow all feelings to just be totally without any resistence. All the rest of it becomes automatic.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Salvijus

[theleelajoker]

@Salvijus: Yeah, same same with everything - observe, act mindful and don't react. Gotta pick up my vipassana practice again

@DefinitelyNotARobot: Well, this is taking it to another level : D

• I do believe in the cosmic game idea. They are certainly playing a role
• They are in a way definitely a mirror of me and my actions
• So you mean that I am actually deceiving myself constantly to be a human and my experience points me towards giving up this false belief? Or at least realizing and accepting it? This thought gives me actually a new completely new perspective, thanks for that   What I take from it that it is actually just part of reality. Much more, self-deception is a necessary condition of it. So why resist what makes this game possible at all?  Rather, integrate and welcome it. Or am I missing your point?
• What is left then is the social game aspect of it...thinking out loud:  self-deception and lies are OK as long as it does not feel malicious towards me. If it does, it is best to observe and avoid ego response while at the same time take considerate action to distance myself from it

[gettoefl]

what you described isn't dishonest, they are doing their best to their level of consciousness and you are getting triggered

[theleelajoker]

@gettoefl  yes that thought crossed my mind as well.  Question is how to handle if their best is gas-lighting, double binds etc? What to do with narcissist, power-driven behavior? How to handle friends, family and partners that act like that?

Yes, I can take the buddha approach, preach compassion etc. But reality is that I am not Buddha. Doing this is possible for me sometimes but not all the time. I see the patterns but my ability to stay calm is less strong than my understanding of what is going on. Eventually I do get triggered and if it gets too much I feel like distancing myself from these people

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Eventually I do get triggered and if it gets too much I feel like distancing myself from these people

Renunciation is a valid option, haha. 

In tibetan buddhism they say.

If you encounter a poisinous plant you can either.

1. Avoid it altogether (Renunciation)
2. Transform poison into medicine (path of a healer, alchemist, tantric, hard to explain...)
3. Or observe it's nature to be empty and be a buddha

Honestly the observing thing is the most dificult and i failed at it many times myself. I was kinda suggesting the way of transformation rather...

[Moksha]

A few considerations;

• You can only see as clearly as you are. First remove the beam from your eye before judging the speck in someone else's eye.
• People don't choose to be unconscious. All of us have been there. It is the human condition. When you see unconsciousness in others, empathize.
• You can't change anyone else. Trying to do so only deepens their unconsciousness. You can only realize clarity within, and be there as a resource when people are ready to hear.
• Don't take offense at others. Doing so only spreads the contagion of unconsciousness to yourself.
• Becoming conscious is always an internal journey. You can offer pointers, but these may or may not be useful. Share insights when asked, but don't attach yourself to any outcomes.

[theleelajoker]

Ok...reading through the replies I get the feeling of "Oh yeah I got stuck in my own s***. I can see it more clearly now".

Time to get back on the horse and do my best.

Funny how easy it is to get lost but also interesting how fast those issues dissolve after spelling them out and "only" a few posts from other people with perspective. Thanks.

[hyruga]

You call them out on the lies. Focus on the lies. Not the person. Look them in the eyes and tell them. Then move on.