The issue I have with pronouns

[DrugsBunny]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You ran the utility calculation in a hypothetical scenario where there is no cost to re-condition people's intuitive understanding of words

We're on the Actualized forum, so I can't post a picture of a hot woman with a penis, although please imagine I had. ? ?

Would it really be intuitive to call such a person a man? I would intuitively call her a woman, and the penis would just be incidental. I will acknowledge that you can also take a less "passing" trans woman with male genitals, and you may think they're a man, but this scenario can be considered akin to mistaking butter for margarine, jam for jelly, alligator for crocodile etc..

Just because a word invites you to assume it's something other than what it is, to me, does not present much reason to defer to intuition rather than social inclusiveness. Obviously if you're mistaken then you will use the wrong word, but I'm talking about the societal inclination to move towards inclusive definitions that make this possibility less likely.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

We're on the Actualized forum, so I can't post a picture of a hot woman with a penis, although please imagine I had. ? ?

Would it really be intuitive to call such a person a man? I would intuitively call her a woman, and the penis would just be incidental. I will acknowledge that you can also take a less "passing" trans woman with male genitals, and you may think they're a man, but this scenario can be considered akin to mistaking butter for margarine, jam for jelly, alligator for crocodile etc..

I would initially experience some internal conflict, but I would quickly think it's a man, because like it or not, female genitalia is very central to womanhood, and it's why people are so inclined to equate it with biological sex. It also conflicts deeply with what I want in a woman.

 

3 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

Just because a word invites you to assume it's something other than what it is,

I don't know what that means. Is there an objective definition of man/woman?

 

3 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

Obviously if you're mistaken then you will use the wrong word, but I'm talking about the societal inclination to move towards inclusive definitions that make this possibility less likely.

We can move towards more inclusive definitions over time, but in our current society, I think respecting people's preferred pronouns is the standard to go by.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Thought Art

8 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@Danioover9000 lol

   I mean it's interesting because you can make the argument that a lot more people are bi themselves without realizing it, just by watching a porno with a hot man and woman doing it. Each body is hot, and the act is also hot, and you're getting aroused. Question is, which one are you getting aroused at: the chick, the cock, or the cock-a-doodle-do?

[Jannes]

15 hours ago, Israfil said:

I agree. And the argument I posed didn't say that identification requires necessarily physical qualities, you can identify with the whole spectrum of stereotypes of either gender. I stated that if mere identification wasn't enough, there wouldn't be any trans people that changed themselves to feel that they're being authentic.

-> One negation too much?

15 hours ago, Israfil said:

I wouldn't say that identification necessarily entails the display and performance of those stereotypes, but the correlation is high.

Yeah because we connect biological sex with gender strongly. And of course they want other people to recognize their gender. In the hypothetical scenario that intentional pronoun use becomes the norm and many people use different pronouns then their biological sex I wonder if the need to display the stereotype physical appeal connected to the gender you identify with will be so high because we wouldn't be used to connect gender and sex anymore so you would make less of a statement with your physical appeal and if you make an "anti-statement" (physical sex doesn't fit gender) people would be more open to recognizing that gender in a different sex.

So in short I think there are people who identify with a different gender exclusively in terms of character traits and if people in society would recognize their chosen gender they would be fine with that and didn't need to change their physical appearance but because sex and gender is so strongly connected they are forced to also change their physical appearance alongside with it. 

15 hours ago, Israfil said:

  People that don't change anything in themselves when gender identification occurs, already see themselves displaying or having the characteristics they perceive as part of that gender.

Yes

15 hours ago, Israfil said:

If you conceptually that such and such should be a part of your gender identity but you don't have that characteristic, you would either defy this norm or comply with it, assuming no further revision in your perception of this concept.

Can't make sense of that sentence because of the error in the beginning. 

[Israfil]

17 minutes ago, Jannes said:

-> One negation too much?

Quote

Yes. Sorry. It was almost 1 AM after 3 hours of music rehearsal. My head was gellyfied.

19 minutes ago, Jannes said:

So in short I think there are people who identify with a different gender exclusively in terms of character traits and if people in society would recognize their chosen gender they would be fine with that and didn't need to change their physical appearance but because sex and gender is so strongly connected they are forced to also change their physical appearance alongside with it. 

I don't see this as a necessity. As we both stated, there are people that simply identify themselves with a different gender and people that feel a need to change themselves in order to match what they ideally would like to see in their bodies or behavior. 

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Can't make sense of that sentence because of the error in the beginning. 

correction:

22 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Quote

If you conceptualize that such and such should be a part of your gender identity but you don't have that characteristic, you would either defy this norm or comply with it, assuming no further revision in your perception of this concept.

 

Another one in the 3 hours of rehearsal bill. Sorry.

[Thought Art]

@Danioover9000 I think I actually am still learning about sexuality. I do suspect more people being bi than they allow themselves to admit yes. At least in passing. I’m not saying everyone is equally Bi. Some might not be at all and that is authentic. I think that human survival, social norms, laws, taboos greatly shape our sexual expression and acceptance. This has pros and cons. 
 

Humans sexuality and masculine/ feminine orientation seems to be capable of a lot of different expression. 
 

About a year ago my mind was opened after some trips where I realized most of human sexuality in the west is badly understood and shaped by shame, fear, etc. I was reading books and watching podcasts on human sexuality as well. 
 

We really have a poor understanding of sexuality in our culture. This is leading to so many problems in society to needless shame and guilt, to rape and pedophelia. We have to really educate ourselves on the reality of human sexuality…. It is… nebulous.

Sexuality is complicated and those who go about actually seeing their sexuality for what it is might find things there that deeply disturb them. But, through doing the inner work necessary they can develop a healthy sexuality.

I am still working to understand my sexuality. I want to date women, but am also attracted to men. But, I don’t see men as romantic partners. I am not attracted to men like I am women. They each have their own a flavour. I also find men repulsive sexually as well. It’s very strange.

Most important is to have a healthy relationship with your body, thoughts and emotions. Develop a healthy sexuality and sexual expression. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Thought Art