The issue I have with pronouns

[Jannes]

Although I do think that pronouns are important especially for trans people I also have an issue with using pronouns more than is absolutely necessary. 

The reason is that it makes gender important again. 

The war that we want to fight is to remove stereotypes about biological women and men right?

So he can like wearing a dress and making his nails, or she likes to repair cars or do physics without being looked at weirdly.

But if we put pronouns into the mix, gender suddenly becomes important again. If a biological men wants to be called he then now suddenly people should  consider him a person with typical male characteristics because he is his pronoun. 

You see how this is counterproductive?

Edit: (If SHE could already do everything a men does, why does she have to use a different pronoun now? And if HE could already do everything a women does, why does he have to use different pronouns now?)

The problem would only be perfectly solved if everybody took pronouns seriously or if nobody took pronouns seriously. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Jannes

[Tanz]

Once people realize being married to any specific identity is greatly limiting then we wouldn't have to obsess about gender, race sexuality, pronouns or any sort.  

People getting riled up about such things on either side are spiritually immature.

[Danioover9000]

@Jannes

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Although I do think that pronouns are important especially for trans people I also have an issue with using pronouns more than is absolutely necessary. 

The reason is that it makes gender important again. 

The war that we want to fight is to remove stereotypes about biological women and men right?

So he can like wearing a dress and making his nails, or she likes to repair cars or do physics without being looked at weirdly.

But if we put pronouns into the mix, gender suddenly becomes important again. If a biological men wants to be called he then now suddenly people should  consider him a person with typical male characteristics because he is his pronoun. 

You see how this is counterproductive?

The problem would only be perfectly solved if everybody took pronouns seriously or if nobody took pronouns seriously. 

   Trans people account for less than 1% of the world's population, whilst heterosexuals make 95% of the world's population and other minority groups roughly 10-20%, why should the world cater to you specifically?

   How does using pronouns, in a typical conversation, make gender important?

   Which war are we talking about? The war of gender equality within English speaking countries in America, or what about other countries that don't have English language, and have romantic languages like French, Chinese, Indonesian, Dutch, Portuguese, where there's already masculine and feminine forms of words backed into the culture?

   How is it counterproductive? Counterproductive that they don't convert to your way of viewing the world?

   Why would this problem only be solved via extreme binaries? Like taking this seriously or not taking this seriously? What if this problem is much lower in other people's or other country's priority list of problems to tackle?

[Jannes]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Jannes

   Trans people account for less than 1% of the world's population, whilst heterosexuals make 95% of the world's population and other minority groups roughly 10-20%, why should the world cater to you specifically?

95% plus 1% plus 10-20% = 106-116% ..?

Right now relatively few people use pronouns. But I think it will be more and more common for people to use different pronouns than their biological gender. 

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   How does using pronouns, in a typical conversation, make gender important?

A pronoun unconsciously connects a person with pre assumptions that we have about the gender.

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   Which war are we talking about? The war of gender equality within English speaking countries in America, or what about other countries that don't have English language, and have romantic languages like French, Chinese, Indonesian, Dutch, Portuguese, where there's already masculine and feminine forms of words backed into the culture?

Stage green across the globe. 

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   How is it counterproductive? Counterproductive that they don't convert to your way of viewing the world?

I want to be called he without making a statement about it. Its not that because I use the pronoun he that I am implying that I want to be seen as a person who feels manly nor do I want that people think I am not feeling that way. I just don't want to make a statement with my pronoun. 

But if everybody uses pronouns intentionally then people will think that I am using mine intentional as well. Which I am not. 

I want that he and she loose their value in a sense. By using pronouns intentionally it becomes important again.

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   Why would this problem only be solved via extreme binaries? Like taking this seriously or not taking this seriously? What if this problem is much lower in other people's or other country's priority list of problems to tackle?

For lower developed countries I don't see this as too important. 

But for first world democracies the gender topic is important imo. People who integrate their shadow are a lot more functional. I think men with integrates female traits are way less likely to start a war and women with integrates male traits get the economy and development going a lot more. Plus it makes people happier. So I think it's very important to find strategies on how to remove stereotypes. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jannes

[Danioover9000]

@Jannes

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

95% plus 1% plus 10-20% = 106-116% ..?

Right now relatively few people use pronouns. But I think it will be more and more common for people to use different pronouns than their biological gender. 

A pronoun unconsciously connects a person with pre assumptions that we have about the gender.

Stage green across the globe. 

I want to be called he without making a statement about it. Its not that because I use the pronoun he that I am implying that I want to be seen as a person who feels manly nor do I want that people think I am not feeling that way. I just don't want to make a statement with my pronoun. 

But if everybody uses pronouns intentionally then people will think that I am using mine intentional as well. Which I am not. 

I want that he and she use their value in a sense. By using pronouns intentionally it becomes important again.

For lower developed countries I don't see this as too important. 

But for first world democracies the gender topic is important imo. People who integrate their shadow are a lot more functional. I think men with integrates female traits are way less likely to start a war and women with integrates male traits get the economy and development going a lot more. Plus it makes people happier. So I think it's very important to find strategies on how to remove stereotypes. 

   Isn't that an assumption that few people use pronouns? What about in casual conversation, when I'm talking about my friend and my friend asks me about my sister, and I said "Michelle? Yeah SHE was at the mall doing shopping for HER new wallpaper", casually and quickly, what's the problem?

   And what's the unconscious pre assumptions about gender? What if the context of using pronouns was casual, and nobody minded?

   What do you mean stage green across the globe? Do you know the values within stage green?

   What do you identify as then if you use he to refer to yourself? How do you even refer to yourself in the 3rd person in the first place?

   What is your problem with intentionally using pronouns for convenience?

   Of course 3rd world countries won't see this as a problem, because they got bigger problems than worrying about gender studies.

   How is gender a 1st world democracy problem, and the concept of shadows aspects and Architypes by Carl Jung connected? What are you assuming between gender studies to shadow work? What feminine qualities do you think would help men? What masculine qualities do you think would help females?

   What are you assuming when men integrate feminine qualities=less wars, and women integrating masculine qualities=more economy and faster development? Wait, women being more masculine=better economy and faster development???Can you explain to me please, using concrete examples?

[DrugsBunny]

I tend to agree with you. 

This position is basically in line with a gender abolitionist perspective, but the problem is it's not really feasible. As long as there is a distinctive quality to how people prefer to express gender then by necessity there will be distinctive terms to refer to the expressions.

It would definitely be a better world if nobody had to conform to rigid gender roles, I agree with you there, but I'm not sure how you conceive of this lack of verbal specificity could actually work logistically, but you certainly have my sympathy dealing with the likes dani9000; our transphobic friend is not exactly playing with a full deck cognitively speaking. Careful not to cite any contradictory public statistics or he'll resort to a pussyfooting appeal to authority and cite Leo's ill conceived anti-trans blog post. If you disagree with him you "disagree with Leo", which embarrassingly enough is his idea of an ace in the hole fail-safe argument.

[Carl-Richard]

People are still going to call each other by gendered pronouns however way you square it.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

32 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

People are still going to call each other by gendered pronouns however way you square it.

   Yea, he kinda has  squared this already and answered his own question in his first post, not gonna lie, but it's kinda hard to be always self censoring for gender neutrality when in quick, casual conversation, especially if the language is not English. While there's a time to slow down pacing of speaking, I feel like conversations, if improvisational, quick, witty, and casual, it feels difficult.

[Danioover9000]

@DrugsBunny

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

I tend to agree with you. 

This position is basically in line with a gender abolitionist perspective, but the problem is it's not really feasible. As long as there is a distinctive quality to how people prefer to express gender then by necessity there will be distinctive terms to refer to the expressions.

It would definitely be a better world if nobody had to conform to rigid gender roles, I agree with you there, but I'm not sure how you conceive of this lack of verbal specificity could actually work logistically, but you certainly have my sympathy dealing with the likes dani9000; our transphobic friend is not exactly playing with a full deck cognitively speaking. Careful not to cite any contradictory public statistics or he'll resort to a pussyfooting appeal to authority and cite Leo's ill conceived anti-trans blog post. If you disagree with him you "disagree with Leo", which embarrassingly enough is his idea of an ace in the hole fail-safe argument.

   Why are you running a smear campaign on me in this community? Just because I posted in a way that presumably made me transphobic?

[Jannes]

On 23.4.2023 at 10:21 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Jannes

   Isn't that an assumption that few people use pronouns? What about in casual conversation, when I'm talking about my friend and my friend asks me about my sister, and I said "Michelle? Yeah SHE was at the mall doing shopping for HER new wallpaper", casually and quickly, what's the problem?

I meant intentionally using pronouns to refer to another gender than your biological one. 

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   And what's the unconscious pre assumptions about gender? What if the context of using pronouns was casual, and nobody minded?

You have conscious and unconscious pre assumptions about a person just by knowing if its a he or a she.

Quote

   What do you mean stage green across the globe? Do you know the values within stage green?

The "gender war" is happening in many 1st world countries atm I heard. People find different ways to make their language gender equitable. I watched the Stage Green video from Leo so I roughly now what SG is about.

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   What do you identify as then if you use he to refer to yourself? How do you even refer to yourself in the 3rd person in the first place?

As a human creature with a dick. Whatever that means. 

Quote

   What is your problem with intentionally using pronouns for convenience?

It's not really convenient. And that's not the point. It's that people using pronouns make pronouns important which I don't like. 

Quote

  Of course 3rd world countries won't see this as a problem, because they got bigger problems than worrying about gender studies.

   How is gender a 1st world democracy problem, and the concept of shadows aspects and Architypes by Carl Jung connected? What are you assuming between gender studies to shadow work? What feminine qualities do you think would help men? What masculine qualities do you think would help females?

What are you assuming when men integrate feminine qualities=less wars, and women integrating masculine qualities=more economy and faster development? Wait, women being more masculine=better economy and faster development???Can you explain to me please, using concrete examples?

By repressing parts of your personality you put it in the shadow. If a boy isnt allowed to cry for example some emotional parts of him get hidden in his shadow, in his unconscious mind. That's how I would put it, idk how Carl Jung would define it. 

Well yeah.. I am tired though..

Okay if men integrate parts of the feminine side so their compassion and the ability to heal themselves emotionally for example their would be less conflict. Men could instead of starting conflict with another person to deal with hurt for example just cry. And if women a not de-empowered at an early age they would have more confidence, more will to get shit done at work.. 

It would be a lot to elaborate.  

[Jannes]

On 23.4.2023 at 11:09 PM, DrugsBunny said:

I tend to agree with you. 

This position is basically in line with a gender abolitionist perspective, but the problem is it's not really feasible. As long as there is a distinctive quality to how people prefer to express gender then by necessity there will be distinctive terms to refer to the expressions.

That's it. ??

On 23.4.2023 at 11:09 PM, DrugsBunny said:

It would definitely be a better world if nobody had to conform to rigid gender roles, I agree with you there, but I'm not sure how you conceive of this lack of verbal specificity could actually work logistically,

Gender roles loose and change their meaning. 100 years ago the picture that came to mind when you heard women was a lot different than what it is today. So that's what I want. Just keep the traditional pronouns but make them less and less meaningful until more or less just the picture of the physical appearance remains. 

On 23.4.2023 at 11:09 PM, DrugsBunny said:

but you certainly have my sympathy dealing with the likes dani9000; our transphobic friend is not exactly playing with a full deck cognitively speaking. Careful not to cite any contradictory public statistics or he'll resort to a pussyfooting appeal to authority and cite Leo's ill conceived anti-trans blog post. If you disagree with him you "disagree with Leo", which embarrassingly enough is his idea of an ace in the hole fail-safe argument.

I am just surprised how fast this topic got emotional. 

[Danioover9000]

@Jannes

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

I meant intentionally using pronouns to refer to another gender than your biological one. 

You have conscious and unconscious pre assumptions about a person just by knowing if its a he or a she.

The "gender war" is happening in many 1st world countries atm I heard. People find different ways to make their language gender equitable. I watched the Stage Green video from Leo so I roughly now what SG is about.

As a human creature with a dick. Whatever that means. 

It's not really convenient. And that's not the point. It's that people using pronouns make pronouns important which I don't like. 

By repressing parts of your personality you put it in the shadow. If a boy isnt allowed to cry for example some emotional parts of him get hidden in his shadow, in his unconscious mind. That's how I would put it, idk how Carl Jung would define it. 

Well yeah.. I am tired though..

Okay if men integrate parts of the feminine side so their compassion and the ability to heal themselves emotionally for example their would be less conflict. Men could instead of starting conflict with another person to deal with hurt for example just cry. And if women a not de-empowered at an early age they would have more confidence, more will to get shit done at work.. 

It would be a lot to elaborate.  

   I see. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, and sorry in advance if I was too interrogative, I just need to know and gain clarity through how you're making the meanings behind the words you use. I do agree that the importance of pronouns is relative, and in theory we can drop most of them, but in practice it is hard as these pronouns, not just in the English language but in foreign languages are pretty backed into the cultures it came from, so to change around language is to also slightly change and influence the cultures it came from, which can be difficult to do, which is why I used the examples of when it's casually face to face conversations because those social settings you have to talk a bit faster, and sometimes there's not enough time to talk slowly and be more philosophical and deliberate, at least in most social settings convenience is more important in context.

54 minutes ago, Jannes said:

That's it. ??

Gender roles loose and change their meaning. 100 years ago the picture that came to mind when you heard women was a lot different than what it is today. So that's what I want. Just keep the traditional pronouns but make them less and less meaningful until more or less just the picture of the physical appearance remains. 

I am just surprised how fast this topic got emotional. 

   Sorry in advance if this thread may become heated or locked, that user is one of the few that I had drama prior in another thread, and regardless of how I explained myself when at times I was joking I am now forever phobic. I'll leave if you don't want to continue this discussion, unless you have questions about my views here?

[ZenAlex]

I will be nice and try to remember your pronoun, just don't shit on me when I forget because I'm doing this as a favour to you, it's not something I'm obliged to remember. This is your preferred language, not mine.

[Jannes]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Jannes

   I see. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, and sorry in advance if I was too interrogative, I just need to know and gain clarity through how you're making the meanings behind the words you use. I do agree that the importance of pronouns is relative, and in theory we can drop most of them, but in practice it is hard as these pronouns, not just in the English language but in foreign languages are pretty backed into the cultures it came from, so to change around language is to also slightly change and influence the cultures it came from, which can be difficult to do, which is why I used the examples of when it's casually face to face conversations because those social settings you have to talk a bit faster, and sometimes there's not enough time to talk slowly and be more philosophical and deliberate, at least in most social settings convenience is more important in context.

It were just a lot of questions and by some of them I didn't know if you were serious about it or not.

That's not the point of this thread though. 

The point is that I would prefer if we all didn't used pronouns for our gender and just used them traditionally to refer to our biological sex BUT further developed the picture of what he and she means. 

Because if we use pronouns to refer to our preferred gender then we make gender important. If SHE could already do everything a men does, why does she have to use a different pronoun now? And if HE could already do everything a women does, why does he have to use different pronouns now?

Quote

   Sorry in advance if this thread may become heated or locked, that user is one of the few that I had drama prior in another thread, and regardless of how I explained myself when at times I was joking I am now forever phobic. I'll leave if you don't want to continue this discussion, unless you have questions about my views here?

I just don't want to be part of the drama and I don't want to take sides. 

[Jannes]

38 minutes ago, ZenAlex said:

I will be nice and try to remember your pronoun, just don't shit on me when I forget because I'm doing this as a favour to you, it's not something I'm obliged to remember. This is your preferred language, not mine.

That's not the point of this thread

[ZenAlex]

27 minutes ago, Jannes said:

That's not the point of this thread

Yeah, but I said it anyway.

[Jannes]

@ZenAlex Ok

[Israfil]

On 23/04/2023 at 2:59 PM, Danioover9000 said:

 Which war are we talking about? The war of gender equality within English speaking countries in America, or what about other countries that don't have English language, and have romantic languages like French, Chinese, Indonesian, Dutch, Portuguese, where there's already masculine and feminine forms of words backed into the culture?

Fun fact: In Portuguese, the last letter usually indicates gender. "A" is usually for females, "o" is usually for males.

aluna = female student

aluno = male student

There is a very strong movement to substitute the gender-defining letter to a neutral one, in order to include women, men, and people that identify with other genders. Romantic languages usually used the male version + plural to define a collection of individuals from multiple genders. A group of 4 male students and 3 female students would "alunos", the male version of the word + plural.

There are naturally gender-neutral words in romantic languages, so you don't need to change the whole article and the gender-defining part of the language to refer to gender-diverse people in most cases. In the above example, I could use "estudantes" (also student) to refer to that group, a word that doesn't change regardless of what gender it is referring to.

I don't mind calling a specific person a specific pronoun, but I don't think we should change the everyday language to cater for 1% of it. 

[Israfil]

14 hours ago, Jannes said:

It's not really convenient

The word pronoun comes from the Latin "pronomen", "that which takes the place/function of the name". We literally use them because they're handier than referring to things by name all the time. 

[Jannes]

10 minutes ago, Israfil said:

The word pronoun comes from the Latin "pronomen", "that which takes the place/function of the name". We literally use them because they're handier than referring to things by name all the time. 

If people use pronouns to refer to a different gender then their biological one because then you need to communicate that and remember it.