How do I know that any of you have really "Awakened" or become "Enlightened"??

[KoryKat]

Let's just say I am calling bullshit.  

 

I hope Leo doesn't mind ,but let's use him as an example. Let's say he's full of crock and this a cult of Kool-aid drinkers... How could one verify this sort of stuff?? 

Doesn't Leo come across as just having a big ego as THE guru that is so much better than any one of us? "You are not awakened" he tells us... How does anyone know who is awakened and who is not???

Alan Watts breaks it down like this :  by coming here to seek awakening , you are seeking something outside of yourself that cannot be found outside yourself , so the guru becomes the exploiter... "I am so much further ahead of you all, that you will always have stuff to learn from me" thus continuing the gurus form of income... 

Gurus only have outside points of view of other people's insides... How can anyone know whether anyone else is awakened... Isn't that a silly game to tell someone they are not awakened?? Lol, how would you know???

 

Discuss.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by KoryKat

[Jwayne]

Whatever label you want to stick on it, the value of the attainment must be determined through the fruits of labour that result.

Everyone wants to inverse that and quantify how many hours they have meditated and how many trips they have taken. But its possible to spend lots of time going in wrong directions.

What matters is what do you have to show for it?

To imply a value to any attainment there must be an external correspondence to the private subjective experience.

If it has granted you wisdom and understanding, then it will be reflected in your speech and deeds.

If it has liberated you from suffering, then that will be reflected in your life.

All spiritual attainments must be expressed in-person, in action, in the real world. There is really no other way to substantiate them.

[Jwayne]

7 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

You can't. Mostly you can only recognize something in someone else that you recognize in yourself. Which also means you can't see very far beyond yourself. But you usually can see who is behind you. Although of course this is not necessarily a linear thing, and moreover you will often mistake the former for the latter.

You also cannot really tell by texts over a screen. The verification is in-person, rather than a matter of language processing.

[KoryKat]

28 minutes ago, Jwayne said:

Whatever label you want to stick on it, the value of the attainment must be determined through the fruits of labour that result.

Everyone wants to inverse that and quantify how many hours they have meditated and how many trips they have taken. But its possible to spend lots of time going in wrong directions.

What matters is what do you have to show for it?

To imply a value to any attainment there must be an external correspondence to the private subjective experience.

If it has granted you wisdom and understanding, then it will be reflected in your speech and deeds.

If it has liberated you from suffering, then that will be reflected in your life.

All spiritual attainments must be expressed in-person, in action, in the real world. There is really no other way to substantiate them.

But that seems to disregard spiritual maturity in the internal development sense , like you seem to suggest that if you are truly awakened / enlightened , then you will have written a book or something... You can't just have nothing tangible to show for it?? Quality of characters , insights , overcoming paradoxical dilemmas, learning flexibility of viewpoints, such things are not measured in tangiblility... 

 

It's like I had an experience that I had to find a word for, and it most resembled a Satori Awakening... But how can anyone believe that, despite that I had a huge transformational shift off it that left a lingering deep insight that has forever changed my model of reality as to the true nature of being? For everyone else , that's just a load of shit coming out of my mouth... But I know , whether it was a "Satori" or something else, that it was a 'level up' moment that took me beyond identification with thinking to being grounded in awareness as my new home.

 

So how can I prove that to anyone ,and thus in turn, qualify whether someone has had a Kundalini Awakening or something else for example???

[KoryKat]

14 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

You can't. Mostly you can only recognize something in someone else that you recognize in yourself. Which also means you can't see very far beyond yourself. But you usually can see who is behind you. Although of course this is not necessarily a linear thing, and moreover you will often mistake the former for the latter.

Hell ya, reminds me of the STAGES Matrix and what Terri Ofallon says ... Definitely I can see an abundance of people that don't have that same sense of essence 'level' that I've grown to, and yet of course figuring out who is ahead is always such a tricky slope.

I look at these models like SD and STAGES and I can map myself out... But is that awakening or enlightenment per say??? I find it so elusive to define these, are there simple definitions??

Edited April 22, 2023 by KoryKat

[KoryKat]

Well for me, I feel like I'm at the 6.0 stage of trying to see others at the MetAware stage and learning to identify others in their uniqueness at the higher-order level , but it is always so challenging when so many people are reluctant to think others are ahead of them, thus putting each other down(or themselves up higher than they rightly are)  , so it becomes this game of cat and mouse it seems... But are the ones playing that game even at the higher level themselves? 

Like Leo says I am not awakened, mofo don't know me, so obviously that's just biased, but how would I know that, am I not just a fool fooling themselves as well? Or is he trying to test me into seeing if I'm the fool? Or is he fooling us about himself not being a fool?  

 

How can we discern these manners with people who are reluctant to be open to those discussions and being curious / open-minded to explore where others have been?

 

Idk, for me ,I always try to take a step back and listen, even after I might tell someone they are bullshitting... But are others doing the same when they say I'm bullshitting?? 

 

Quite the conundrums

You both give me quite an easy sense of it that "you get it" but others , especially the ones that argue with you so hard-nosed , it's quite the guesswork... And I'm trying to figure out some shortcuts 

I feel like when people tell me. "I don't get it" without knowing me , they are trying to trick me or actually confused themselves ,and I give them the benefit of the doubt that I'm the confused one, but it gives me an uneasy feeling to play the fool when I think they are just trying to fool me into doubting myself as a sort of ego-trip onto themselves.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by KoryKat

[Jwayne]

15 minutes ago, KoryKat said:

So how can I prove that to anyone ,and thus in turn, qualify whether someone has had a Kundalini Awakening or something else for example???

There is no way to substantiate your experiences to others unless it has correspondence to some aspect of our external shared reality.

It must be reflected in some way through your living, decision-making, way of relating to others, and so forth.

All religious-spiritual history is a story of demonstrations, manifestations and expressions of such awakenings.

People who privately experience things, of course, it is subjectively authentic. But you asked about verification. And that's very slippery and indeterminate most of the time.

[JosephKnecht]

49 minutes ago, KoryKat said:

Isn't that a silly game to tell someone they are not awakened?? Lol, how would you know???

Whenever in doubt, you make yourself a nice bath and ask the Squeaky Toy. 

It always knows.  

[JellyDogShoe_1Mil]

There are no enlightened people.

Ultimately, there is no "enlightenment" or "awakening." Who would be enlightened? The ego?

If the ego is seen to be false, who or what is enlightened or awakened? 

Just come back to the fact of your own existence, your very own being.

That is all the "enlightenment" you'll ever need, for that is all there is. 

 

[JellyDogShoe_1Mil]

Just now, JellyDogShoe_1Mil said:

There are no enlightened people.

Ultimately, there is no "enlightenment" or "awakening." Who would be enlightened? The ego?

If the ego is seen to be false, who or what is enlightened or awakened? 

Just come back to the fact of your own existence, your very own being.

That is all the "enlightenment" you'll ever need, for that is all there is. 

 

I also wanted to add, I too used to view others as "enlightened," thinking they had or unlocked something I did not already have.

Little did I know, I am already that. You are already that. The Self, God, Source whatever term you want to call it. 

[Salvijus]

If you're tone deaf, you won't have the ability to tell whether others are playing in tune or not. But if you cultivate your ears for some years, even a smallest note out of harmony will immediatly sound off and unpleasent.

It's the same with humans. When someone is in tune and in harmony with Reality and Truth. That one will sound like a beautiful melody, full of harmony and peace, in perfect rhythm with cosmic unfoldment. When someone is full of bs, only ear jarring noise will come out of them.

If you're a really good jazz player tho, you can seemingly play out of harmony and out of rhythm here and there and still be perfectly in tune. That's what "zen anger" is all about. But tone deaf people should not attempt that. Learn to play in basic harmony first at least

Your ability to tell who's full of bs and who's speaking the truth hinges on how deep your awareness (inner ear) goes. You can be tone deaf in self-awareness, a totally ignorant person. Or you can be a bethoven of awareness, a sage.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Salvijus

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, KoryKat said:

Like Leo says I am not awakened, mofo don't know me, so obviously that's just biased, but how would I know that, am I not just a fool fooling themselves as well? Or is he trying to test me into seeing if I'm the fool? Or is he fooling us about himself not being a fool?  

Leo's standards of awakening are quite ridiculous, so don't expect to hit that mark. But generally, there are signs that can give you insight into someone's mental state, but you can't know for sure.

[Moksha]

Instead of asking how to know if someone is awake, ask whether what they teach helps you along the inner path to the absolute.

Rather than asking how to make others know you are awake, ask whether what you teach reflects your inner path to the absolute.

There's truth to the maxim that "by their fruits ye shall know them", but the fruit still grows on other trees. Produce good fruit yourself, and you won't be distracted by whether others do or don't.

[gettoefl]

you like who you are like

if they are mapping out and walking a similar path to you then that is going to resonate and so hang on to these folks, they are precious and god given beacons of light

others are fine to listen to for sharing and socializing, no big deal, we're comprise a community of like minded seekers

Edited April 23, 2023 by gettoefl

[universe]

When you become awake it's so radical, you will notice.

You will also not worry about other Gurus anymore...

 

It doesn't even matter if a Guru is enlightened or not, as long as he makes you enlightened.

If someone can teach me how to make money but doesn't make money himself, it doesn't matter as long as I get the results.

Just try the techniques and see if it works.

[BipolarGrowth]

It‘s impossible to know for a number of reasons. The main reason is that you do not have access to another person’s direct experience. Another reason would be that the words “awake”, “enlightened”, “God-Realized”, etc. all point to rather ineffable states/experiences/realizations which have different definitions for essentially every single person using these words. I’m sure I could come up with more reasons, but those two alone should be sufficient for you to see that trying to verify awakening for another person is just a game that has little value from a more absolute perspective. 
 

On a more relative level, you can verify things to a degree if you have a serious practice which leads you to believe that you have awakened. You can then compare what various teachers and practitioners describe to your own experience of awakening. If most of what they say lines up with your real experience, you can probably gain some useful perspectives and practices from these people. It’s also good to listen to people who don’t seem to know awakening as you do because they can often be pointing to other aspects of awakening that you have yet to realize. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by BipolarGrowth

[Leo Gura]

By awakening ever deeper, ye shall know. And by no other way.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Leo Gura

[FlyingMan]

Time for a nap.

[Shin]

What I have found, is that if you're awakened, then there is no one else that is awakened, ever, because it's only you in the first place.

Not the ego, God, the ego is a fantomatic fabrication like everything else.

 

The entire world is awakened or you're asleep/half asleep believing there are other partition of God being aware separately.

Now this is funny, cause I'm speaking from an ego point of view now, and have no idea whatsoever if what I'm telling is true or not, this is all memory and intuition, and from what I remember, I would probably not try to convince anyone about this, cause that would be pointless in the first place  

[Ry4n]

On 22/4/2023 at 8:18 PM, KoryKat said:

Let's just say I am calling bullshit.  

 

I hope Leo doesn't mind ,but let's use him as an example. Let's say he's full of crock and this a cult of Kool-aid drinkers... How could one verify this sort of stuff?? 

Doesn't Leo come across as just having a big ego as THE guru that is so much better than any one of us? "You are not awakened" he tells us... How does anyone know who is awakened and who is not???

Alan Watts breaks it down like this :  by coming here to seek awakening , you are seeking something outside of yourself that cannot be found outside yourself , so the guru becomes the exploiter... "I am so much further ahead of you all, that you will always have stuff to learn from me" thus continuing the gurus form of income... 

Gurus only have outside points of view of other people's insides... How can anyone know whether anyone else is awakened... Isn't that a silly game to tell someone they are not awakened?? Lol, how would you know???

 

Discuss.

 

 

How seriously do you take everything?

Thats a good start. 
 

Anyone who takes anything too serious including their own awakening is full of shit. 
 

Awakening itself is also a complete dream not to be take seriously.

 

It doesn’t really matter what other people are up to, what matters is you and what you want. Do you want to experience a deep intimacy with all existence whilst simultaneously free of its bullshit? Do you want to experience profound peace, creative inspiration and a sense of the divine and deeper clarity of life as a whole? All of that is available to you, and that’s really all that matters.