Do and can animals have rights in society?

[Danioover9000]

   Is it possible to pass more legislation of animal rights and animal welfare? Could PETA and other animal welfare organizations?

For example look at these rabbits:

   This looks like somewhere in a 1st world democracy.

   Ans then you have 3rd world countries and places like these, that treat rabbits differently as food:

 

   How can these other governments, cultures, societies? How can we start to even have them treat rabbits kindly for example?

[at_anchor]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How can these other governments, cultures, societies? How can we start to even have them treat rabbits kindly for example?

Bring them all to America and Europe, or just go build infrastructure for those people, social housing, libraries, books, stuff that helps, medicine, take care of their health, take away their languages or make them use Latin script.

Educating people properly and taking care of their health for real, not with some stupid drugs and stuff. Taking toxic stuff out of the market is important for peoples health as well! 

You also must make them selfless and loving towards each and every one and make them aware of the law and morals and able to not trespass on these things. 

Unfortunately, many people will have to die without ever having lived a good life. Sad truth about reality.

I hope my answer isn't too bad.

 

 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

You Imagine these villagers are treating that wild rabbit unkindly. 

They know how to slaughter or hunt.

Or what is kind and not kind.

Why do you force them into your system?

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

4 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

You Imagine these villagers are treating that wild rabbit unkindly. 

They know how to slaughter or hunt.

Or what is kind and not kind.

Why do you force them into your system?

   Firstly, that's a badly loaded question I'm not answering directly because I'll like some imperial colonialist, so let me change the question that I can answer and be more good faith: Given the challenges due to SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development across multiple domains of a person's life to societal domains, and the ideological indoctrination, how would you help them develop socially and psychological so that they become more like 1st world democracies and be more ideologically aligned to you?

   My answer to this better question would be to encourage the politicians somehow that it would be in their best interest change their intentions into nation building a few of these 3rd world countries, and change their government, societies and their own politics to be slightly more similar to yours because of the Moloch and arms race situations making all of us double down into our own biases with game A orientation instead of game B, because if we don't address the Moloch and come together to work it out and figure it out, we'd deteriorate so fast that it will threaten your own survival agendas and the legacy and family you leave behind. It's basically a bad Mexican stand off were nobody is coming out of this a clear, total winner, even if there's one winner, the sacrifices and compromises for winning is too great a cost to our country and to the world.

   That would be my answer, not the best answer on the spot but it's sufficient at the moment.

[Danioover9000]

@at_anchor

30 minutes ago, at_anchor said:

Bring them all to America and Europe, or just go build infrastructure for those people, social housing, libraries, books, stuff that helps, medicine, take care of their health, take away their languages or make them use Latin script.

Educating people properly and taking care of their health for real, not with some stupid drugs and stuff. Taking toxic stuff out of the market is important for peoples health as well! 

You also must make them selfless and loving towards each and every one and make them aware of the law and morals and able to not trespass on these things. 

Unfortunately, many people will have to die without ever having lived a good life. Sad truth about reality.

I hope my answer isn't too bad.

 

 

   Nah, your answer is decent enough, it's not bad, but it's good enough and it's not like I want a tier 3 cognitive answer or anything. May need further elaborations here and there but it's decent.

[Danioover9000]

@at_anchor @Sucuk Ekmek  I guess my main issue is how do I balance my personal, biological and psychological needs with the animal welfare and animal rights situation? Like I don't want to be a drunken bunny internet personality raving and being crazy because I don't have enough carbs, fats, proteins and other nutritional stuff, and it then effecting my mental, psychological and state of mind making me think like I'm some intellectual superiority complex or intellectia hubrisia Rationaleta or something. I really want to do just a little bit of good to animals through government, society and political actions maybe, but I don't want to risk being more crazy because of it.

[Oppositionless]

let's invest in lab-grown meat and build factories in all the impoverished regions of the world. make it so that it's more affordable than livestock.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Oppositionless

[Tanz]

Getting rid of medicine that uses animals will be difficult because humans weigh human life is more valuable than animals.  From there, it becomes an argument on who or what you love more.

3 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

let's invest in lab-grown meat and build factories in all the impoverished regions of the world. make it so that it's more affordable than livestock.

Lab-grown meat is a new thing, and the jury is still out there on whether or not it's safe to eat in the long run compared to the diet humans have been eating for more than 4 million years.  If it all comes out to be a mistake to go in that direction it could bankrupt entire countries because the rise in healthcare cost.  

Every chronic disease known to man results in "science" being clever by manipulating nature or developing cost-effective processes to increase profit.  Our technology is improving life for humans but costing the environment tremendously.  

I instead grow my food and raise my fish and chickens as a protein source.  Regenerative farming ironically reverses climate change, and the best part is people don't have to stop eating meat; in fact, doing so would be better for the environment.  
https://www.syngentagroup.com/en/regenerative-agriculture
https://regenerationinternational.org/why-regenerative-agriculture/

[at_anchor]

@Danioover9000 

• Make parks in the cities that have cows and chickens around for people to observe and care for.
• Save one kind at the cost of the other by encouraging people to stop eating red meat and eat poultry instead.
• Make sausages and stuff from pinto beans and sell it premade and delicious at a cheaper price.
• Make a YouTube channel or show that shows how these animals are intelligent, conscious and can learn something. Train them.
• Convert people from Christianity to Buddhism or Hinduism.
• Make peace with it, you live in a reality where beautiful animals like cows and chickens are basically born just to feed humans with their meat. That ain't gonna change any time soon. Not that long ago people were selling human meat on the markets in France as I read recently in a book. Even today life of many people even though more complex, is harder than that of animals that are being slaughtered for meat. Again, the only thing you can do is to optimize human diet and health. But that is difficult. Good luck making peace with what is, what was and will be for centuries to come.

[Schizophonia]

8 hours ago, Tanz said:

Getting rid of medicine that uses animals will be difficult because humans weigh human life is more valuable than animals. 

No life has absolute value, the value of a thing is always relative to the interest of other conscious entities, this is the basis of Darwinism.

So yes humans are more valuable than animals, animals are not going to pay taxes, offer me services, be my friends, my girlfriend etc. They are literally useless.
And vice versa, for a rabbit the life of a homo sapiens has less value than his child or another rabbit, for the same reasons.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, at_anchor said:

@Danioover9000 

• Make parks in the cities that have cows and chickens around for people to observe and care for.
• Save one kind at the cost of the other by encouraging people to stop eating red meat and eat poultry instead.
• Make sausages and stuff from pinto beans and sell it premade and delicious at a cheaper price.
• Make a YouTube channel or show that shows how these animals are intelligent, conscious and can learn something. Train them.
• Convert people from Christianity to Buddhism or Hinduism.
• Make peace with it, you live in a reality where beautiful animals like cows and chickens are basically born just to feed humans with their meat. That ain't gonna change any time soon. Not that long ago people were selling human meat on the markets in France as I read recently in a book. Even today life of many people even though more complex, is harder than that of animals that are being slaughtered for meat. Again, the only thing you can do is to optimize human diet and health. But that is difficult. Good luck making peace with what is, what was and will be for centuries to come.

lmao 

I laughed a lot, thank you very much, I will sleep well tonight 

[Danioover9000]

@Oppositionless

12 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

let's invest in lab-grown meat and build factories in all the impoverished regions of the world. make it so that it's more affordable than livestock.

   Yeah, I hope they can develop this technology so that lab meat gets mass produced, and tastes nice.

   Another animal welfare and right issue, is getting the animal drugged or drunk. I mean animal testing and using the latest chemical compounds to test on, and pumping that animal full of alcohol and drugs isn't morally good to me.

[Danioover9000]

@Tanz

9 hours ago, Tanz said:

Getting rid of medicine that uses animals will be difficult because humans weigh human life is more valuable than animals.  From there, it becomes an argument on who or what you love more.

Lab-grown meat is a new thing, and the jury is still out there on whether or not it's safe to eat in the long run compared to the diet humans have been eating for more than 4 million years.  If it all comes out to be a mistake to go in that direction it could bankrupt entire countries because the rise in healthcare cost.  

Every chronic disease known to man results in "science" being clever by manipulating nature or developing cost-effective processes to increase profit.  Our technology is improving life for humans but costing the environment tremendously.  

I instead grow my food and raise my fish and chickens as a protein source.  Regenerative farming ironically reverses climate change, and the best part is people don't have to stop eating meat; in fact, doing so would be better for the environment.  
https://www.syngentagroup.com/en/regenerative-agriculture
https://regenerationinternational.org/why-regenerative-agriculture/

   What are your views on animal testing? Should we stop it and reduce it?

[Danioover9000]

@at_anchor

4 hours ago, at_anchor said:

@Danioover9000 

• Make parks in the cities that have cows and chickens around for people to observe and care for.
• Save one kind at the cost of the other by encouraging people to stop eating red meat and eat poultry instead.
• Make sausages and stuff from pinto beans and sell it premade and delicious at a cheaper price.
• Make a YouTube channel or show that shows how these animals are intelligent, conscious and can learn something. Train them.
• Convert people from Christianity to Buddhism or Hinduism.
• Make peace with it, you live in a reality where beautiful animals like cows and chickens are basically born just to feed humans with their meat. That ain't gonna change any time soon. Not that long ago people were selling human meat on the markets in France as I read recently in a book. Even today life of many people even though more complex, is harder than that of animals that are being slaughtered for meat. Again, the only thing you can do is to optimize human diet and health. But that is difficult. Good luck making peace with what is, what was and will be for centuries to come.

   Based on Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and traits, ego development, states of consciousness and other lines of development in various areas of life, and ideological indoctrination, self biases, it'll be hard to implement each of your solutions.

1. Making parks for farm animals sounds good, but that space could instead be used to grow a garden, or a building for others, or a zoo sanctuary, or just apartment complex. This is another Moloch situation, arms race to better stuff, because are the higher status people, the SD blue/orange people incentivized to making an animal farm park, when instead they could use the space to build a fancy technology building, or even vertical farming instead?

2. Okay, but what happens to local butchers, or industrial level butchers? big business owners that process cows? They lose advantage, in exchange businesses dealing with slaughtering and raising chickens for eggs, poultry, and feathers will raise, and even create more problems for the chickens, whilst we have a surplus of cows, what do we do with the less useful cows?

3. Okay, we start selling pinto bean sausages, and figure out the marketing and promotion, the supply lines, equipment and hiring employees that can do this. However, the pricing can become a problem because making a product cheaper and affordable, while it sounds nice and can have more reach to more demographics and psychographics, can be a problem depending on how much tax your business has to pay, how much money you spend for the ingredients, how much salary you pay to your employees, and maybe insurance costs and coverages because sometimes accidents are expensive to fix. What do you do in a mid-high tax bracket state, where corporate tax is mid-high?

4. This is kind of a mute point, because there's already 10,00s of YouTube channels that are entertainment/educational, educational mostly, that are animal welfare and animal centric, yet most people of stage blue/orange values still mostly continue their treatment of farm animals, home pets, and general outlook, whilst any changes are at best minor scale and not global, no disrespect to Gretta Thunderbird.

5. Converting a population with a historical development of Christianity, into Buddhism currently will not work fast enough nor will scale to the collective level within western cultured divisions and countries. Taking a stage blue populace and taking actions of preaching/proselytizing and religious conversion into another religion like Buddhism, another mostly stage blue religion, in a western culture that has Christian ideological indoctrination and history, will be met with egoic backlash, individually to collectively.

6. This seems like the most applicable and feasible solution, to make peace with your circumstances of the world and even in your own life, because sometimes we'll fail to make the ideal changes in our lives or in the world, and if we don't practice some gratitude or have appreciation over things that are very difficult to change, or in some cases near impossible to change globally, we end up thinking and feeling more negatively and we put ourselves more in scarcity and desperation to change those circumstances.

[Danioover9000]

@Schizophonia

53 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

No life has absolute value, the value of a thing is always relative to the interest of other conscious entities, this is the basis of Darwinism.

So yes humans are more valuable than animals, animals are not going to pay taxes, offer me services, be my friends, my girlfriend etc. They are literally useless.
And vice versa, for a rabbit the life of a homo sapiens has less value than his child or another rabbit, for the same reasons.

   However, they do provide emotional value, and even sometimes functions as a replacement for a thing or person you've lost, and can provide some emotional and sentimental value to the owner, even if that's a coping mechanism.

   You could say they're mostly useless and only act as some source of fats, proteins and for clothing for example, nature has a use for these kinds of animals clearly, otherwise nature would have extinct them a long time ago.

[Tanz]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   What are your views on animal testing? Should we stop it and reduce it?

The conversation needs to be had.  I prefer humans to reduce it and have criteria for when and when not to.  If it's for boner medication then no.  The type of animal would matter too. Rats and mice have lower priority, whereas primates should be ranked higher.  

I don't know if I want to live for 10 or 20 years longer if it means torturing a bunch of monkeys. I have even asked my kids if they were dying, would they want animals to be tortured so they can live, and they said no.  On the other hand, I can understand why people would do such things, and certainly, I can understand what a parent would do to save their child. At the very least, there should be some prayer or ritual in the name of the animals that are "giving up" their lives, like in Avatar or what Native Americans used to do when they hunted.  We are more conscious than them, so our responsibility is higher.  Despite of where Cov#d came from, it's fair to say our meddling with nature caused it.  Karma has a mysterious way of working its way back to humans.  We can consider such events as tax being paid.  The tax bill wasn't that high, considering.  A tax bill that costs less than 1% of us isn't expensive compared to the animals we wiped out of extinction or dramatically reduced their population. 

Without medicine, we wouldn't be where we are, but we are at a time in history where consuming less, and taking less from the environment will save us more than producing new medicines and even technologies. 

 
Here is a terrible video about monkeys being tested on by vice: 

 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

On 18.04.2023 at 7:12 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   Firstly, that's a badly loaded question I'm not answering directly because I'll like some imperial colonialist, so let me change the question that I can answer and be more good faith: Given the challenges due to SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development across multiple domains of a person's life to societal domains, and the ideological indoctrination, how would you help them develop socially and psychological so that they become more like 1st world democracies and be more ideologically aligned to you?

Okay you are answering with good faith but I see problems with this question.

First if you want a functional democracy you need stage yellow voters. This means millions and billions of stage yellow individuals which knows how to lead a nation state.  Why do you want me to vote if I have no knowledge in such stuff ? This is a self-sabotage from nation state perspective, I am sorry but voters(citizens) are literally getting fucked by doing this. They are messing with affairs that they have no clue. 

and second, people shouldnt be ideologically aligned with me. Understanding is much better value.

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Sucuk Ekmek

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

4 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Okay you are answering with good faith but I see problems with this question.

First if you want a functional democracy you need stage yellow voters. This means millions and billions of stage yellow individuals which knows how to lead a nation state.  Why do you want me to vote if I have no knowledge in such stuff ? This is a self-sabotage from nation state perspective, I am sorry but voters(citizens) are literally getting fucked by doing this. They are messing with affairs that they have no clue. 

and second, people shouldnt be ideologically aligned with me. Understanding is much better value.

 

   Well, you need more educated voters, educated in developmental psychology and Spiral Dynamics at least, not just only stage yellow valued people. Getting to scale where most people at stage yellow will be difficult, so next best thing will be more educated populace, but not just only knowledgeable at nation leading or nation building.

   I assume the default answer, is I want you to vote with little knowledge of politics, society, government and environment stuff because I get to manipulate you through my persona and charisma, and I don't have to hyper elaborate too much on my policies.

   It may seem self sabotaging, and that citizens are getting screwed, but it seems like it's the best we have so far at societal scale. If we look at these following individuals, like Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheel, Ken Wilbur, Don Beck, and we see where they're educated for the most part, we see that they were home schooled and have been intrinsically motivated for learning new things/good parent household and loving parents. How can we replicate these early childhood circumstances to scale up to millions-billions of people having stage yellow values as their mental ecology? That's just fucking hard for me to fathom given recent and current trends in education, seems like traditional educations and public schooling is at the moment very good at scale, whilst border schools, private schooling, military schooling, and home schooling are more difficult to scale.

   Of course, I agree that most people shouldn't be ideologically identical because that's just another copy of you.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

    I assume the default answer, is I want you to vote with little knowledge of politics, society, government and environment stuff because I get to manipulate you through my persona and charisma, and I don't have to hyper elaborate too much on my policies.

   

Exactly, you want to trick me. I refused the option B and voted for option A. But it's essentially the same thing. I refused B but voted for B  lol...

Are you aware of implementations?

 

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

7 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Exactly, you want to trick me. I refused the option B and voted for option A. But it's essentially the same thing. I refused B but voted for B  lol...

Are you aware of implementations?

 

   What does it mean for me to be aware of implementations? Do you mean am I conscious of implementations, or I have knowledge of implementations?