Going Against Spiritual Notion of Completely Escaping Suffering and....

[Rasheed]

Lately I started spiritual notion of completely escaping suffering and unconditional happiness many Buddhist teachers, Eckhart Tolle, sometimes Osho and others talk about.

I have to be honest, I think is bullshit. Calling life's condition 'periphery' and saying that only 'center' matters, life conditions do not matter, as Osho says is bullshit. When Osho went to jail, he wanted hell out of there but if we ask him, 'it was just a periphery'...Unconditional happiness, happiness 24/7, no matter what happens, no matter what time it is or what is going on is impossible, (in my opinion)  no matter if one spends perfectly, precisely, rigorously doing a meditation practice for 20 years. Same thing about suffering. How can one completely stop suffering, any pain or discomfort? Completely eliminate oneself out of it even if one perfectly meditates 16 hours a day for next 20 years? Seriously, how? 

I think because survival won't allow it. No amount of enlightenment can make one transcend survival because these spiritual teachers, Eckhart Tolle, Osho are still human with survival bias. Survival doesn't allow complete stoppage of suffering or unconditional happiness. 

I think Aristotle is more on point when he says that suffering is inherent to life but one can decrease it by living virtuously and when it comes to happiness, one can become happy by living a virtuous, conscious life. 

I am not saying I am correct, this is my view, I can be 100% wrong. Lately, I have been contemplating spiritual concepts which I took for granted because actually thinking that all suffering must cease and one must be happy 24/7 in order to be developed, conscious, 'enlightened' is great way to f-up one's life and psyche.

[M A J I]

You don't need to meditate 16 hours a day, you simply bring meditation/meditativeness in your day to day life. Simply be present with all that you do. Your mind is thinking and not accepting because the mind cannot grasp what is beyond itself, it is naturally threatened by it. This is normal.

Only the ego or mind suffers, the Self is Eternally free from any suffering unless it wishes to experience it for some purpose, play or pleasure. As paradoxical as that sounds. In Enlightenment we are no longer surviving but thriving, absolutely. There is no question unto it.
 

As long as you are attached to anything, mind, body, life ect.. you are subject to suffering. As Buddha said many thousands of years ago, arguably the greatest master to even walk on this earth, "The Root cause of All suffering is: Attachment".

You are not experiencing suffering, you are suffering your experience.

[r0ckyreed]

Realizing all spiritual ideas are human fantasies is part of the awakening.  All ideas must be questioned and deconstructed.

[Yimpa]

40 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Realizing all spiritual ideas are human fantasies is part of the awakening. 

Not true. 

Some spiritual insights come from beyond human consciousness. You need to experience beyond human consciousness to understand this. 

Spiritual insight > spiritual idea

Edited April 18, 2023 by Yimpa

[Moksha]

12 hours ago, Rasheed said:

No amount of enlightenment can make one transcend survival

You're right. Enlightening doesn't stop you from being human. It is the deepening realization of the absolute brilliance within, which was never human to begin with. Nothing is transcended, beyond the illusion that there is anything to transcend.

If the absolute remains in this realization within the dream, there is no suffering. How could there be? Nothing is resisted, because every experience is chosen. What used to be identified as you becomes a beloved portal through which the absolute explores its cosmos, without being lost within it. It is free to do so lucidly, because it is unbound by desires and fears. It is the highest adventure before returning to the silent state of itself.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Moksha

[Breakingthewall]

The psychological suffering that loneliness produces, the lack of human love, the lack of sex, friendship, the love of your parents, the deficient and imperfect relationships between humans, that we are fragmented as soon as we are human, is real. Whoever says that he has transcended all this, well... would have to see it. the issue is that it is real, and what? Toothache is also real. Well, your teeth hurt and that's it. There is nothing bad or wrong about suffering for the human condition. The thing is how to surrender your suffering and accept it, and understand it. It's part of life. The ones who are so anxious to avoid it look like children who think that if they hide under the bed, the monster won't catch them.

And the gurus who sell the end of suffering look like those vendors from the west who sold an elixir that healed everything. Scammers. Christ the day before being crucified suffered psychologically, like anyone else

Edited April 18, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[koops]

Was thinking the same lately.

My perspective is that spiritual work can help dealing with painful situations, and reducing suffering, but not pain.

For example, if your wife leaves you, you are going to feel pain. 100%. Thats how we are wired. Even if Tolle's wife leave him or died, he is going to feel pain, cry, and grief.

We have an animalistic side. Like you said. Im sure Osho wanted to get out of jail as quickly as possible. His animalistic side wanted better survival conditions.

The problem with most people is that when something bad happens they are going to create a narrative that will bring more suffering in addition to the real pain:
'We were meant to be together for a lifetime', 'life is never fair to me', 'Im unlucky', 'my life is going to be misery now', 'I can't live without her', 'I won't find another woman like this', 'why bad things happen to good people?... and so on.
 

Spiritual work makes you realize that those are all made up stories. Periphery. Ego. So the attachment to that stories brings suffering.

And that is more or less avoidable. But pain is not going anywhere. Becase in a relationship, for example, we are attached to that person. Like it or not. There is always attachment. Healthier or unhealthier, but there always is. To the body, to the business/job, to our family, to our partner... So there will be pain if there is a breakup, or if your business fail, or ir a family member dies, or if you have health problems. 

The question is: can we let go the attachment to the STORY we made up?

 

[r0ckyreed]

10 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Not true. 

Some spiritual insights come from beyond human consciousness. You need to experience beyond human consciousness to understand this. 

Spiritual insight > spiritual idea

You are assuming that you know what is true and are awake. 

Believing in spiritual ideas has nothing to do with truth or awakening. Truth is NOT Buddhism. It has nothing to do with a spiritual idea. Ideas are not truth.

You must question and deconstruct all ideas period.

Edited April 18, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Moksha]

@Breakingthewall Suffering isn't a universal solvent. There is no value in suffering for the sake of suffering. If you are sincere, you see the suffering as an opportunity to go deeper. If you let it, suffering will teach you its cause and the secret to dissolving it. It is the result of resisting what is, so let go and stop resisting.

People confuse pain with suffering. They aren't the same. Pain is the inevitable cost of experiencing life through a human form with a nervous system and relationships with apparent others. It can be softened by the absolute, but not entirely ignored if the absolute wants to continue experiencing the cosmos through the form.

Pain is the price of dreaming. Suffering is the price of losing yourself within the dream.

[koops]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Pain is the price of dreaming. Suffering is the price of losing yourself within the dream.

Nice way to say it.

-

In a way, accepting pain, reduces suffering.

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

You are assuming that you know what is true and are awake. 

Believing in spiritual ideas has nothing to do with truth or awakening. Truth is NOT Buddhism. It has nothing to do with a spiritual idea. Ideas are not truth.

You must question and deconstruct all ideas period.

[Rasheed]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The psychological suffering that loneliness produces, the lack of human love, the lack of sex, friendship, the love of your parents, the deficient and imperfect relationships between humans, that we are fragmented as soon as we are human, is real. Whoever says that he has transcended all this, well... would have to see it. the issue is that it is real, and what? Toothache is also real. Well, your teeth hurt and that's it. There is nothing bad or wrong about suffering for the human condition. The thing is how to surrender your suffering and accept it, and understand it. It's part of life. The ones who are so anxious to avoid it look like children who think that if they hide under the bed, the monster won't catch them.

And the gurus who sell the end of suffering look like those vendors from the west who sold an elixir that healed everything. Scammers. Christ the day before being crucified suffered psychologically, like anyone else

Exactly. It’s unfortunate that they are selling end of suffering and unconditional 24/7 happiness in what can be called Buddhist/spiritual business and marketplace. 

[Leo Gura]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:30 AM, Rasheed said:

Calling life's condition 'periphery' and saying that only 'center' matters, life conditions do not matter, as Osho says is bullshit.

Of course it's bullshit.

If we put you naked in the middle of the Siberian winter you will be miserable, fall ill, and die a miserable death.

A living organism cannot ignore its environmental conditions. This is evolution 101. Happiness and health is utterly linked with that.

If we lock one of these gurus in a box with a Britney Spears song playing on a loop 24/7, he will go batshit crazy within a month.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If we lock one of these gurus in a box with a Britney Spears song playing on a loop 24/7, he will go batshit crazy within a month.

This is basically my gym (and I go there voluntarily ?)

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is basically my gym (and I go there voluntarily ?)

Oh the joys of a home gym.

[Buck Edwards]

You cannot completely eliminate suffering but you can legitimately desensitize your experience of suffering through meditation and other ways. Don't be too absolute on your spiritual journey. A lot of spiritual concepts are relative. What benefit you derive from them partially resides in how you apply them to your life. 

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

This is a distortion of Osho’s teachings. Osho was known as the ‘rich man’s guru’ precisely because he taught money was essential to buy the comforts necessary to be spiritual.

[Yimpa]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course it's bullshit.

If we put you naked in the middle of the Siberian winter you will be miserable, fall ill, and die a miserable death.

A living organism cannot ignore its environmental conditions. This is evolution 101. Happiness and health is utterly linked with that.

If we lock one of these gurus in a box with a Britney Spears song playing on a loop 24/7, he will go batshit crazy within a month.

From Osho to “Oh, shit!” 

[zunnyman]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Oh the joys of a home gym.

I have a home gym and I prefer that annoying music box gym lol .. theres a great social motivated environment at the gym that fires me up all the time. It's sweaty, bad music, time consuming, but the dedicated people wake you up

 

[Moksha]

Next to telecommuting, getting a home gym was the best silver lining of Covid.