Why isn’t anyone in the Russian government able to stop Putin?

[Jwayne]

45 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

1. Even if Russia would be completely surrounded by Nato, it wouldn't threat Russia's sovereignty. It's a threat only to Russia's imperialistic aggressive offensive expansion.

2. The war in eastern Ukraine before 24 February 2022 already made it impossible for Ukraine to join Nato. So a full scale invasion wasn't necessary to prevent Ukraine from joining Nato.

It's Ukraine which seeks west. And as a sovereign country it has the right to do that.

Sad to see that you are buying the Russian propaganda.

https://www.iir.cz/lies-provocations-or-myths-pretexts-nato-and-the-ukraine-crisis

Ukraine was artillery shelling its own territory in the breakaway republics in the days leading up to invasion which is a violation of the Minsk agreement. That's when Putin ratified his official protection of them so he can have legal precedent should they be attacked further.

At that time Zelensky even suggested reneging on an agreement not to seek nuclear weapons.

Going back to October before the conflict Russia was asking for dialogue to remove missile sites around its borders that can hit Moscow in a matter of minutes (how many missiles does Russia have in border regions to Washington DC ?).

The USA said we are ready to discuss anything but your terms are non-negotiable. Which is why the rest of the world, specifically Russia and China, consider Americans to be exceptionally poor diplomats. They have no tact and rely upon bullying vulnerable countries.

Then in February China and Russia signed a 55,000 word statement announcing their "friendship" which is a very profound sentiment in Eurasian-Chinese cultures. Whereas America sees friendship as a mere pragmatic tool to further its own 'national interests'.

The USA is by far the most aggressive imperialist power in the world going back a century. Just type into a search engine "American invasion of ..."

Edited April 18, 2023 by Jwayne

[Blackhawk]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not propaganda, it's Putin's agenda. You don't have to agree with it, but you should be unbiased enough to understand it.

You make the same mistake as the Americans, which is not taking Putin seriously when he tells you his boundaries. You are arrogant enough to think that your idea of what the boundaries ought to be, are correct. Decades of this kind of thinking is what created this war.

Stop playing moralistic games. This is serious geo-politics. If you want to avoid war you don't moralize to people, you listen to their boundaries.

I disagree that it's Putin's agenda.

Putin's agenda is to make Russia bigger and more powerful, he wants Soviet Union back. That is his only agenda.

"If you want to avoid war you don't moralize to people, you listen to their boundaries."

So we should let dictators rule over us? We should do what they want? Do you understand that that leads to a rabbit hole where those who threatens and uses offensive violence wins and then they will just ask for more and more until they have taken over everything?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/07/15/i-once-supported-putin-now-i-know-the-truth-00031740

 

 

https://ridl.io/the-west-through-the-eyes-of-russians/

"The demonized image of Europe and the West in general which dominates in the minds of Russians today has been wholly created by the Kremlin and its obedient media. The anti-Western campaign currently waged by pro-Kremlin media is by no means the first but it is characterized by its hitherto unprecedented scale and duration which is capable of effectively changing not only superficial judgements of Russians, as it was before, but of exerting a more profound and long-term impact on the average psychological profile and hence the future of Russian-Western relations.

Contemporary Russia had experienced the first large-scale anti-Western campaign even before the process of propaganda institutionalization was launched. Against the backdrop of the bombing of Yugoslavia by NATO forces in 1999, most of the major Russian media outlets took an unwaveringly pro-Serbian stance, ignoring the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and focusing on the need to support the Orthodox Slavic brothers – a relevant topic given recent events. As a result, the narrative of NATO bombing entirely blameless Serbia for the sake of geopolitical ambitions was firmly instilled in the minds of Russians. Amenable public opinion, prone to manipulation, was shaped in quite a predictable way and old phobias inherited by new Russia from the Soviet Union immediately surfaced, since no large-scale de-Sovietization has ever taken place. As a result, in 1999, half of the Russian respondents interviewed by the Public Opinion Foundation (FOM) stated that they believed that the USA was an external enemy of Russia and was capable of waging a war against it (nearly one third of Russians shared this view in 1997). In general, negative perceptions of the USA held by Russian citizens rose from 28% to 72%."

[Blackhawk]

[_Archangel_]

@Blackhawk 1) A state sovereigny is thretened if its sphere of influence is at risk, cause' it means they could be the next to be swallen by someone else's sphere.

2) Leaders reason in decades. an atlantic Ukraine would be the perfect "buffer state" regardless if they join NATO or not.
They were a russian bufferstate as much as Belarus is now.

------------

I woud say it's rather naive to think that a tiny state can "chose" where to stand.
If negotiation bigin russians would only consider to sit down with the americans.

[bazera]

@Leo Gura If you were living in Ukraine right now, how would your perception of Russia change? Won't your survival agenda play a role in demonizing Putin?

I live in Georgia, it's country below Russia that was attacked in 2008 and is still under threat of attack. And people around me demonize Putin, even considering the perspective of Putin is considered treason here. I understand that it's just a survival agenda but a strong motive to demonize something that hurts you.

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You make the same mistake as the Americans, which is not taking Putin seriously when he tells you his boundaries. You are arrogant enough to think that your idea of what the boundaries ought to be, are correct. Decades of this kind of thinking is what created this war.

Stop playing moralistic games. This is serious geo-politics. If you want to avoid war you don't moralize to people, you listen to their boundaries.

But that point seems to be mute as Ukraine and especially America seems to be winning. Because of this war, Ukraine seems like a strong sovereign country rather than a borderland bitch of superpowers with no sense of direction. 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

100+ million people and a culture so that children can be born Russian rather than American bitches.

Realistically it was communism and the "glorious Soviet Union" that butchered traditional Russian culture. America is going to build a Mcdonald's or two but not blow up Orthodox churches. 
 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Stop playing moralistic games. 

Do you think the West is wrong for constantly preaching morals and human rights to underdeveloped regions? Like the Kasshogi murder by Saudi Arabia. The Americans just kept hammering it for years. So no wonder Saudi Arabia is now getting closer to Iran and China. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

19 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

But that point seems to be mute as Ukraine and especially America seems to be winning. Because of this war, Ukraine seems like a strong sovereign country rather than a borderland bitch of superpowers with no sense of direction. 

Realistically it was communism and the "glorious Soviet Union" that butchered traditional Russian culture. America is going to build a Mcdonald's or two but not blow up Orthodox churches. 
 

Do you think the West is wrong for constantly preaching morals and human rights to underdeveloped regions? Like the Kasshogi murder by Saudi Arabia. The Americans just kept hammering it for years. So no wonder Saudi Arabia is now getting closer to Iran and China. 

   I think the Ukraine should have been a sovereign state, and buffer state, and should've joined with NATO much earlier. Now that the situation is what it is, this'll be a hard negotiation and bartering to Russia. The war has to stop sooner or later.

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

 I think the Ukraine should have been a sovereign state, and buffer state, and should've joined with NATO much earlier. Now that the situation is what it is, this'll be a hard negotiation and bartering to Russia. The war has to stop sooner or later.

NATO was kinda pussyfooting with Ukraine. Ukrainians themselves wanted to join but Nato conducted itself very indecisively and without clear direction. My guess is that Putin took this as a weakness that contributed to his overconfidence and his expectation for a short and decisive war.  

But yeah Ukraine is now fighting a war that is going to be massively decisive to its history and the direction they go in as a nation. Like you cannot say to 1700's colonial America: "Don't fight the British, make a compromise of some sort, you need to understand the geopolitical position of the British besides they are a superpower much stronger than you." 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vibes]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not propaganda, it's Putin's agenda. You don't have to agree with it, but you should be unbiased enough to understand it.

I watched Oliver Stone's Documentary that you recommended and some other stuff, and now I can't hate Putin anymore.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Vibes

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

NATO was kinda pussyfooting with Ukraine. Ukrainians themselves wanted to join but Nato conducted itself very indecisively and without clear direction. My guess is that Putin took this as a weakness that contributed to his overconfidence and his expectation for a short and decisive war.  

But yeah Ukraine is now fighting a war that is going to be massively decisive to its history and the direction they go in as a nation. Like you cannot say to 1700's colonial America: "Don't fight the British, make a compromise of some sort, you need to understand the geopolitical position of the British besides they are a superpower much stronger than you." 

   They actually can make that compromise if they wanted. After all, how do you know that America losing the war of independence against great Britain would have been a net negative for America? After all, what happened with the black community that helped fought with the Yankees for independence? They got back into being slaves. Maybe if Great Britain won, they would've abolished slavery much sooner, as slavery was ending faster within Great Britain at the time? Yes, they still had to pay taxes to GB as compromise, but then it would've been much better?

[Danioover9000]

@Danioover9000

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   They actually can make that compromise if they wanted. After all, how do you know that America losing the war of independence against great Britain would have been a net negative for America? After all, what happened with the black community that helped fought with the Yankees for independence? They got back into being slaves. Maybe if Great Britain won, they would've abolished slavery much sooner, as slavery was ending faster within Great Britain at the time? Yes, they still had to pay taxes to GB as compromise, but then it would've been much better?

   For reference:

 

[Israfil]

13 hours ago, actuallyenlightened said:

It's important to remember that Russia is a highly centralized ethnostate that has exploited it's resource-rich peripheral regions for centuries and kept them poor.

I could state something similar about the US. The modern west is the biggest is the largest empire in history.

[Vrubel]

43 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

Maybe if Great Britain won, they would've abolished slavery much sooner, as slavery was ending faster within Great Britain at the time? Yes, they still had to pay taxes to GB as compromise, but then it would've been much better?

The redeeming factor of America is that despite everything it started and progressed as an experiment in democracy. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

24 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

The redeeming factor of America is that despite everything it started and progressed as an experiment in democracy. 

   But is America really the first Democracy? What about the UK?, what about Canada? What about Athens?

   Athens is technically the first democratically structured rulership, and there could be others earlier I don't know, but why should America be except?

[Israfil]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Do you think the West is wrong for constantly preaching morals and human rights to underdeveloped regions?

Yes. The US doesn't get to decide what's developed or not. That's the whole point of sovereignty. People have the right to rule their own countries.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura If you were living in Ukraine right now, how would your perception of Russia change? Won't your survival agenda play a role in demonizing Putin?

I live in Georgia, it's country below Russia that was attacked in 2008 and is still under threat of attack. And people around me demonize Putin, even considering the perspective of Putin is considered treason here. I understand that it's just a survival agenda but a strong motive to demonize something that hurts you.

I don't have a high opinion of Putin's war crimes even now. Obviously he is doing disgusting things in Ukraine.

But demonizing him is counter productive to proper understanding. The stakes are too high for demonizing him. We need a realistic understanding of his motives and agenda.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   But is America really the first Democracy? What about the UK?, what about Canada? What about Athens?

   Athens is technically the first democratically structured rulership, and there could be others earlier I don't know, but why should America be except?

Sure, the idea is from Athens, and Britain also has a democratic tradition, though the war started because Americans did not feel represented. It was about Americans asserting their right as Americans (Bald eagle sound in background*). In historical terms having a 240-year-old chain of 44 presidents that freely gave up power after term limit or elections is pretty fu*king revolutionary. Of course, there was a civil war and a dent in that chain as of late. But the experiment is nonetheless marching on.

Russia also has redeeming qualities. They kicked Hitlers' ass, which is about as redeeming as you can get. There is also something poetic about how unpoetically Russians suffer and shoot themselves in the foot constantly. 

 

48 minutes ago, Israfil said:

Yes. The US doesn't get to decide what's developed or not. That's the whole point of sovereignty. People have the right to rule their own countries.

I meant more about whether it's good foreign policy to be constantly preaching about human rights. Of course, it's going to turn them off but on the other hand, America can use its power leverage to make countries think twice before they commit some questionable action like chopping up a journalist. Though in that particular case, I think America shot itself in the foot by just hammering it down so relentlessly because it totally alienated the Saudis which has bad geopolitical consequences for them.  

Edited April 18, 2023 by Vrubel

[Blackhawk]

7 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Putin's agenda is to make Russia bigger and more powerful, he wants Soviet Union back. That is his only agenda.

Or well, his agenda was also to consolidate power. To strengthen his position, the regime's position, and make him more popular in Russia.

The Crimea thing was a success so he wanted more of the same. That's what happens when a dictator gets what he wants. That's why you shouldn't give in to dictators.

[Leo Gura]

@Blackhawk You are really stuck in your perspective on this, which is not in alignment with truly trying to gain deep understanding.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Blackhawk]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Blackhawk You are really stuck in your perspective on this.

For a good reason.

You are also stuck in your perspective on this.