Awakened folks, how do you view yourselves?

[Mikesinfinity]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the materialistic paradigm lately and what naive realism really mean and the more I question it the more layers I discover, subtly influencing how I’m holding everything appearing.

Sometimes when I talk to ”normal people” about there being no distinction between inside and outside they don’t really understand that because how the sense of objects being outside seems to be such a foundational construction. Most people, I’ve discovered, don’t even think about it the way scientists might think of it, as there being an internally brain generated world, but instead much more simply.
And for myself there still comes up objections about this because this is so deeply ingrained and to question it seems very counterintuitive at first.

Also, we all have different kind of minds and some of us have a more scientific backdrop and don’t accept things willy nilly and have more deconstructing and re-contextualization to do. Personally, I have a very skeptical mind so simply ”dropping” things and rest in being isn’t as easy as it might be for someone that doesn’t have that kind of mind. The dropping part comes naturally for me when the objections no longer come up.

So I like to come up with analogies the give me clearer thinking about this.

The common conception of the body, perceiving and the world is similar to if we would have a flashlight in a dark room. So we turn the flashlight on and we have a line between where it’s light and where it’s dark. The line is kind of fuzzy but there is still ”within” the light and ”outside” the light.

We think there exists something outside the light and if we would turn around the flashlight the objects that were previously lit now still exists but are in the dark. We usually think of our bodies this way, like flashlights moving around in the dark, lighting up a pre-existing world. The body is like the ”flashlight”, perceiving or seeing is like the ”light” and the objects in the dark that’s being lit up is like the ”external world”.

So if you think of yourself as a body the objects seems to be outside, in the same way as the objects that’s being lit up by the flashlight are outside of the flashlight.

If we remove the idea that there is anything outside the light, the objects within the light stop existing in relationship to anything outside and the flashlight itself also disappears as it’s also not within the light.

So back to my question, do you at some level still view yourself similar to that flashlight, or do you view yourself as the whole ”light field” without objects or a body outside of it? Or maybe neither? 

[Javfly33]

 

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Personally, I have a very skeptical mind so simply ”dropping” things and rest in being isn’t as easy as it might be for someone that doesn’t have that kind of mind

I don't think the correct word is skeptical. If you were truly skeptical you wouldn't need to 'drop' anything because the materialism illusion is something that is Created by the mind.

If you were skeptic you wouldn't´ believe the thoughts of the mind so easily.

(Not saying this as an attack or anything because due to culture indoctrination we all have been "Creating" the illusion though)

 

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So back to my question, do you at some level still view yourself similar to that flashlight, or do you view yourself as the whole ”light field” without objects or a body outside of it? Or maybe neither? 

None of that. Those are still views, beliefs, thoughts.

The whole purpose of spirituality is to get your mind, body and life energies to such a point of clarity and intensity that no thought, theory of philosophy could ever get close to.

Love is realized when letting go of ALL beliefs. 

[BlueOak]

I am whatever I/We focus on. Whatever I/We experience. Whatever I/We decide life is currently.

[Mikesinfinity]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I don't think the correct word is skeptical. If you were truly skeptical you wouldn't need to 'drop' anything because the materialism illusion is something that is Created by the mind.

If you were skeptic you wouldn't´ believe the thoughts of the mind so easily.

Well, this whole inquiry is skepticism of the materialist illusion. Those objections that come up for me is indeed skepticism that comes from being indoctrinated in the materialist paradigm so that’s why I’m here. I’m outing my thinking exactly to have it poked at and to get pointers on how I’m creating it because if I’m not aware of that I will definitely look att everything from that vantage point without even knowing it.

 

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

None of that. Those are still views, beliefs, thoughts.

The whole purpose of spirituality is to get your mind, body and life energies to such a point of clarity and intensity that no thought, theory of philosophy could ever get close to.

Love is realized when letting go of ALL beliefs. 

It’s not that easy though. Because the problem here is distinguishing between what’s a belief and what’s truth. If I’m not aware of what are actually beliefs because I hold them as true and therefore not beliefs, then I can’t let go of them as beliefs because for me they are not simply that. If I would approach a random stranger on the street and ask them about ”seeing” or ”vision” they would probably talk about it as something similar to the flashlight analogy and they wouldn’t hold that as a belief but as ”what’s simply the case”.  

Maybe it’s clear for you. Would you say that this view of bodies, as ”flashlights” viewing objects is a belief only?

[Lilia]

I would describe it like this: your head gets replaced by the Universe. This Universe is experienced as interconnected and wondrous ever-loving self-aware signals. Not only is it self-aware light; it is also self-aware sound, taste, thought, emotion, and all other modes of it, which people normally call 'our senses'. The body is one such self-aware signal. All signals differ from each other in form, but at their core, they are all experienced to be identical.

[BipolarGrowth]

The idea that you are the light or what is lit up by the flashlight is not quite right. The light (consciousness/direct experience now) is constantly in flux. Anything and everything in the light can change and become irrelevant, including the light itself. It isn’t a stable thing to form a correct identity upon. There is no thing which can be the correct basis of an identity. All conclusions and insights are temporary as well. There can and most likely will come an experience or infinite array of various experiences which will make all human understanding and perspective useless. Once all meaning and partial understanding is eradicated, what is will illuminate itself with its own brilliance. That brilliance is the true message, and it is inescapable. 

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Mikesinfinity said:

So if you think of yourself as a body the objects seems to be outside, in the same way as the objects that’s being lit up by the flashlight are outside of the flashlight.

If we remove the idea that there is anything outside the light, the objects within the light stop existing in relationship to anything outside and the flashlight itself also disappears as it’s also not within the light.

So back to my question, do you at some level still view yourself similar to that flashlight, or do you view yourself as the whole ”light field” without objects or a body outside of it? Or maybe neither? 

You (capital Y) are the whole Infinite Reality (imagined body, imagined appearances, imagined everything n+1). With nothing outside of it, because that would be an imagined arising too. Any boundary separiting IT from an imagined other IT would be an imagined arising, an appearing phenomenon. Infinite.

Try to imagine everything gone, including thinking: NOTHINGNESS. Not big, not small, just NOTHINGNESS. A vast infinite Nothingness, that is not even vast, because there is no 3D-space or anything (no objects/arisings). Similiar to Deep Sleep. YOU are still there. YOU awake every morning after having been there. You already know that you can be totally something/somebody else in dreams, and have totally forgotten all the past you imagine right now to be your "real" human self.

But IT is not Nothingness like nothing there at all, but Nothingness with the POTENTIAL for sentience as soon as anything is imagined, and with Infinite Potential to imagine ANYTHING within it, n+1.

Imagine a water pistol pops up in this Nothingness (see example Massaro, Conversations with a Skepctic):

• Then you have a) an imagined appearance (water pistol) and b) "something" perceiving it, the subject.
• Or just the perceptions of the water pistal in case no separates self is imagined/arises. 
• Just the waterpistol perceiving itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. Impersonal.
• Then you have a "world", and subject/object.

So what are you then?

• a) The Infinite Field  with anything that can possibly be imagined? Yes. Nondual/Totality/Oneness. The manifest/imagined side of Infinite Consciousness. Always changing, never stable, since no appearance/form lasts. NONE. But there is a constant:
• b) But even more so, you are that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself, Infinite Consciousness initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something arises. The unmanifest side of Infinite Consciousness. The unchanging, Unborn and constant core of the True You/Reality itself. So empty that IT is the Abyss, Impersonal. NOTHINGNESS. But also Infinite Potential, since IT can imagine anything.
• and "Both"a) and b) is indivisible, nondual. Totally the same essence, ONE Reality. The Nothingness or the True You is already the essence/"substance" of every imagined arisings/phenomenon, including the water pistol, or all separate self arisings (they are all appearances within you).
• a nice book about that is Szyper, "Infinite Consciousness"

And that is why with the Big Awakening/Big  Enlightenment, you

• realize yourself to already be (and ever have been, ever will be) both totally Nothingness (no separate self arisings not transcended or spotted fast enough) and everything manifested/appearing.
• Its all One Infinite Reality, imagined in Infinite Consciousness/Mind, hovering empty appearances, hovering in You/Reality, perceptions perceiving themselves. What falls away (or are understood) are just the ignorant separate self arisings, that make you feel and think you are not the Infinite Totality, but this small body "moving" in it. You become Nothing(-ness), but also Everything. No longer a separate body-mind in a larger "universe", but all of that happening in You.

To fully get it, you need

• many small awakenings/Kenshos/Enligthenments (becoming gradually the empty infinite mere imagined appearances/nondual field),
• and a big awakening (Great Enlightenment, Basis Enlightenment, Great Satori) after you have become the whole infinite empty field, when you wonder who/what PERCEIVES that field. The One Hand clapping.
• That is when the last subtle layers of the separate self are suddenly seen through. Sudden Awakening. Its gradual until then, and sudden and unmistakenly with the last shift. Up to that shift, there are stages and higher awakenings. But the bug stops here. That is also why you never know with the smaller Awakenings (1) what the end of the ladder is.... and (2) you still suffer. And of course you can go exploring afterwards, but you already understand what You are and what Reality is when doing that. And how you fooled yourself before, with many different layers (imagined separate self, imagined past, imagined future, imagined anything n+1). The Real You is quite smart to fool itself in such a way.... ( :

Tricky thing with the last shift is:

• This last shift needs a fully empty or transended separate self, including very subtle layers of feeling/thinking... And that needs.... a lot of time in these nondual and empty states to get rid of any untranscended separate self arising.
• And these last separate self elements can be very tricky & subtle, needing familiarity with them to spot them, and a very fast speed of spotting and transcending/cutting them off in real time.
• And: You can't force it here with the usual meditation techniques (that came before this stage) of directing attention. Because who/what is doing the meditation? The separate self.... It has to be automized, so that the meditation does itself. No artificial activity of a separate self. Non-Meditation Yoga in the Mahamudra-System. Or alternatively, but not so efficient: "Bang your head against the wall" for several years with a Koan. That also works, but more brute-force-style and doesn't feel so nice...

Or you win the genetic lottery, jump all of that, find yourself to be the Great Unborn... and have no clue how to get there since you jumped the journey. Ramana-style. The author of these lines wasn't lucky enough to win this lottery. But hey, the point of the ride is ride. Bon voyage!  ( :

"We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche

Selling Water by the River

[Moksha]

Each person exists within its unique cosmos. It senses, perceives, interprets, and creates its own relative reality, which is entirely different from the reality of any other person.

To realize the sameness of the absolute requires withdrawing from the energies of relative reality, and focusing awareness on the essence. It dissolves all apparent boundaries. The third eye is just an analogy, but it resonates. It is direct awareness of the absolute within and beyond this and other forms, entirely free from the delusions and distractions of maya.

[Thought Art]

I am not awake

[Yimpa]

59 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I am not awake

Still waiting to get hit with the broom of Pure Love, I see 

[Thought Art]

@Yimpa oh no I have been taken plenty of hits ? 

I just know there is more

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Yimpa oh no I have been taken plenty of hits ? 

I just know there is more

Same here

[CARDOZZO]

I've had awakening experiences.

Post-awakening Effects: No mind, just silence, pure silence for 3 days, aliveness.

But after 3 days, the mind starts to have power again.

I don't know if you can become enlightened 100% all day like "permanent enlightenment".

I don't know if it's possible.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by CARDOZZO

[HMD]

I'll answer that with a beautiful quote I read recently, somewhere on this forum. 

"Nobody on this forum is AWAKE!" ~ Leo Gura

[CARDOZZO]

@HMD

I've used awakening with "a" and not "A"  

[HMD]

@CARDOZZO Very wise, sir. Very wise indeed. 

[Yimpa]

 

54 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

I've had awakening experiences.

Post-awakening Effects: No mind, just silence, pure silence for 3 days, aliveness.

But after 3 days, the mind starts to have power again.

I don't know if you can become enlightened 100% all day like "permanent enlightenment".

I don't know if it's possible.

Sounds very limiting to me, even if it were a possibility. 

[CARDOZZO]

@Yimpa

I personally don't know if people really know what they are pursuing aka Truth.

Maybe they'll become sad that Truth, Enlightenment and Awakening will not get you laid or rich.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by CARDOZZO

[Yimpa]

39 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

 

I personally don't know if people really know what they are pursuing aka Truth.

On one hand, not knowing is hell on earth. On the other, not knowing is liberation.

43 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

 

Maybe they'll become sad that Truth, Enlightenment and Awakening will not get you laid or rich.

At higher states of consciousness you won’t even be bothered to need any of that. It won’t even cross your mind.

But don’t put the cart before the horse.

[Buck Edwards]

15 hours ago, Water by the River said:

You (capital Y) are the whole Infinite Reality (imagined body, imagined appearances, imagined everything n+1). With nothing outside of it, because that would be an imagined arising too. Any boundary separiting IT from an imagined other IT would be an imagined arising, an appearing phenomenon. Infinite.

Try to imagine everything gone, including thinking: NOTHINGNESS. Not big, not small, just NOTHINGNESS. A vast infinite Nothingness, that is not even vast, because there is no 3D-space or anything (no objects/arisings). Similiar to Deep Sleep. YOU are still there. YOU awake every morning after having been there. You already know that you can be totally something/somebody else in dreams, and have totally forgotten all the past you imagine right now to be your "real" human self.

But IT is not Nothingness like nothing there at all, but Nothingness with the POTENTIAL for sentience as soon as anything is imagined, and with Infinite Potential to imagine ANYTHING within it, n+1.

Imagine a water pistol pops up in this Nothingness (see example Massaro, Conversations with a Skepctic):

• Then you have a) an imagined appearance (water pistol) and b) "something" perceiving it, the subject.
• Or just the perceptions of the water pistal in case no separates self is imagined/arises. 
• Just the waterpistol perceiving itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. Impersonal.
• Then you have a "world", and subject/object.

So what are you then?

• a) The Infinite Field  with anything that can possibly be imagined? Yes. Nondual/Totality/Oneness. The manifest/imagined side of Infinite Consciousness. Always changing, never stable, since no appearance/form lasts. NONE. But there is a constant:
• b) But even more so, you are that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself, Infinite Consciousness initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something arises. The unmanifest side of Infinite Consciousness. The unchanging, Unborn and constant core of the True You/Reality itself. So empty that IT is the Abyss, Impersonal. NOTHINGNESS. But also Infinite Potential, since IT can imagine anything.
• and "Both"a) and b) is indivisible, nondual. Totally the same essence, ONE Reality. The Nothingness or the True You is already the essence/"substance" of every imagined arisings/phenomenon, including the water pistol, or all separate self arisings (they are all appearances within you).
• a nice book about that is Szyper, "Infinite Consciousness"

And that is why with the Big Awakening/Big  Enlightenment, you

• realize yourself to already be (and ever have been, ever will be) both totally Nothingness (no separate self arisings not transcended or spotted fast enough) and everything manifested/appearing.
• Its all One Infinite Reality, imagined in Infinite Consciousness/Mind, hovering empty appearances, hovering in You/Reality, perceptions perceiving themselves. What falls away (or are understood) are just the ignorant separate self arisings, that make you feel and think you are not the Infinite Totality, but this small body "moving" in it. You become Nothing(-ness), but also Everything. No longer a separate body-mind in a larger "universe", but all of that happening in You.

To fully get it, you need

• many small awakenings/Kenshos/Enligthenments (becoming gradually the empty infinite mere imagined appearances/nondual field),
• and a big awakening (Great Enlightenment, Basis Enlightenment, Great Satori) after you have become the whole infinite empty field, when you wonder who/what PERCEIVES that field. The One Hand clapping.
• That is when the last subtle layers of the separate self are suddenly seen through. Sudden Awakening. Its gradual until then, and sudden and unmistakenly with the last shift. Up to that shift, there are stages and higher awakenings. But the bug stops here. That is also why you never know with the smaller Awakenings (1) what the end of the ladder is.... and (2) you still suffer. And of course you can go exploring afterwards, but you already understand what You are and what Reality is when doing that. And how you fooled yourself before, with many different layers (imagined separate self, imagined past, imagined future, imagined anything n+1). The Real You is quite smart to fool itself in such a way.... ( :

Tricky thing with the last shift is:

• This last shift needs a fully empty or transended separate self, including very subtle layers of feeling/thinking... And that needs.... a lot of time in these nondual and empty states to get rid of any untranscended separate self arising.
• And these last separate self elements can be very tricky & subtle, needing familiarity with them to spot them, and a very fast speed of spotting and transcending/cutting them off in real time.
• And: You can't force it here with the usual meditation techniques (that came before this stage) of directing attention. Because who/what is doing the meditation? The separate self.... It has to be automized, so that the meditation does itself. No artificial activity of a separate self. Non-Meditation Yoga in the Mahamudra-System. Or alternatively, but not so efficient: "Bang your head against the wall" for several years with a Koan. That also works, but more brute-force-style and doesn't feel so nice...

Or you win the genetic lottery, jump all of that, find yourself to be the Great Unborn... and have no clue how to get there since you jumped the journey. Ramana-style. The author of these lines wasn't lucky enough to win this lottery. But hey, the point of the ride is ride. Bon voyage!  ( :

"We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche

Selling Water by the River

That's a thorough explanation.