Which spirals do religious mystics fall into

[Gennadiy1981]

SO I know indeed a number of religious individuals whether they are into Kabbalah Judaism, or Christian Mystics of Suffis Muslims, and I am trying to figure out what spiral dynamic level do they belong. So the individuals exhibit a hardcore stage blue, they strongly believe their religion is the only right religion, their truth is the only truth, they strictly follow their respected bible and pretty much fundamentally keep their practices.

However, they also are aware and some even know the nature of reality. They do see God as an infinite Oneness and not an old bearded man in the clouds. They do get mystical experiences, they understand the universal consciousness as those teachings do dive very deep into and a lot of things they learn something what one can experience during a psychedelic trip.

So on one hand, they are hardcore stage blue, but I would add that they have some turquoise in them, but then i am asking myself, can such thing even be possible by skip;ping so many stages in between. I know a person can be on the border line such as stage blue and orange, but can they be on the border line by skipping other stages. I know those individuals are lacking orange, green and yellow. Or maybe that where spiral dynamic model fail?

[Buck Edwards]

They cannot be turquoise at the same time. 

[Michal__]

Enlightement, in the normal sense of the word, does not gurantee a high level of personal development.

Some of them were even warlords. SD Red.

All of the classic religions are sexually repressed. SD Blue. And they can lead to some deep realizations.

Basically, you can be an underdeveloped monkey even if you are blissed out 24/7 and have a permanent no self realization.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Michal__

[Moksha]

Regardless of religious tradition, mysticism is the direct path to releasing every identification, including the idea of being a mystic. If you want to compare it to colors, it is white, it is black, and it is beyond both.

[Gennadiy1981]

But interestingly those individuals know the nature of reality, they understand The Universal Consciousness and Great Mind, however at the same time, maybe its pressure from their communities and cultures they grew in, they strictly abide by the religious rules. They are definitely missing orange, green and yellow. But they do have knowledge of God realization that you are God and the world is an illusion same as turquoise would speak off.

[koops]

You can be at turquoise with underdevelop stages below.

The same as the broke hippie. He is green, but without red, blue and orange integrated.

The same with these mystics. They can go full turquoise, the same as the hippie goes full green skipping stages below. 
This doesn't mean is healthy nor the best path to go.

But this can be a stretch for SD, and not even practical for westerns who have to earn money and live in and orange society with all its complexities.

 

 

PS: Nisargadatta was illiriterate and you can say he was at stage turquoise.

[Davino]

You are comparing apples and oranges.

One thing is human/relative development and another thing is transcendental development. They usually go hand by hand but not necceasarly as you have discovered.

The main problem is that transcendental devolpment gets very corrupted when it is reinterpreted from a low ego/cognitive stage. But the states are legit as you pointed out.

Ken Wilber's core work points to this difference between states and stages. States are free (aka mystical experiences) and stages are earned. You occasionally have normies experiencing epiphanies, the same way you can get hit by a lightning. Most of them think they are losing their mind however. You can also have extremely intelligent and developed individuals that are deeply unaware of the higher states of consciousness. This is also the core difference between the east and the west. One is focused on states and the other in stages. Hence the problematic, they lose this higher perspective that we are constructing here.

This is why Actualized.org is such a gift because it excels in both domains.

[Sincerity]

Spiral dynamics doesn't measure spiritual development.

[Moksha]

50 minutes ago, koops said:

PS: Nisargadatta was illiriterate and you can say he was at stage turquoise.

He was beyond turquoise. Call him any color, and he would laugh.

[Gennadiy1981]

Thanks all, so apparently you can skip stages, but not really states. But you are correct, the most healthiest way is to go through them all. So there is one person I know well, the thing is he grew in a predominately religious environment with all conditioning embedded into him so for him to let go of all religious practices would be as letting himself go. But on the other hand, this specific individual does have compassionate for others and even resembles a lot of stage green, with the only exception he is too attached to blue stage worshiping. 

[Davino]

This video is very good. Don't take into accound the title or the cover. The content is worth it 

[blackchair]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:55 PM, Davino said:

You are comparing apples and oranges.

One thing is human/relative development and another thing is transcendental development. They usually go hand by hand but not necceasarly as you have discovered.

The main problem is that transcendental devolpment gets very corrupted when it is reinterpreted from a low ego/cognitive stage. But the states are legit as you pointed out.

Ken Wilber's core work points to this difference between states and stages. States are free (aka mystical experiences) and stages are earned. You occasionally have normies experiencing epiphanies, the same way you can get hit by a lightning. Most of them think they are losing their mind however. You can also have extremely intelligent and developed individuals that are deeply unaware of the higher states of consciousness. This is also the core difference between the east and the west. One is focused on states and the other in stages. Hence the problematic, they lose this higher perspective that we are constructing here.

This is why Actualized.org is such a gift because it excels in both domains.

great, thank you for your explanation, i dont have time to go through Wilber's opus, 1583 times a day i doubt my stage, but God damn I've earned it......

[Carl-Richard]

Turquoise is not non-duality.

[blackchair]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Turquoise is not non-duality.

what about coral?

[Carl-Richard]

50 minutes ago, blackchair said:

what about coral?

Nobody knows what Coral is, but I doubt it.

[tuku747]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:16 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Nobody knows what Coral is, but I doubt it.