Why do Trans need rights?

[John Paul]

I don’t understand the big debate around Trans people and Trans kids… why is it such a big deal that they have equal access to everything? I understand that this is a “sd stage green” issue but I was hoping someone would explore the logic of this issue with me. 
 

is it just to troll the right?

Edited April 11, 2023 by John Paul

[Tanz]

For the most part, most people agree Trans women should not compete against women in sports, by allowing them to do so ironically alienates biological women from striving in their sport.  

Some women feel insecure with a trans woman is in the bathroom with them. Should we ignore how they feel because a trans person feels they are being discriminated against?  As a man, if a trans man is in the bathroom with even a beautiful woman or me, I would not at all feel uncomfortable. An obvious solution would be to have three bathrooms.  One for men, one for women, and the other a neutral one. On the other hand, imagine the cost it would take on taxpayers in public places and businesses if we added bathrooms wherever there are bathrooms inside buildings.

Trans account for about maybe 1% of the population.  If the effort is given to that population, what about other minorities that perhaps deserve more attention, such as indigenous ones?  

I have plenty of gay friends, but I don't come across any trans people in my life, except when I go shopping in the stores and I see one working.  People want to change overnight, but it takes time for these things; ultimately, it's all about personal exposure. It is difficult for most people, and it's unreasonable to expect others to sympathize with your suffering because they also suffer in different ways.   

They are making the trans issue a BIG issue because they are trying to distract people from more significant problems. This allows them to not work on actual cases that the majority face in their lives.  

Edited April 11, 2023 by Tanz

[tadpole]

4 hours ago, John Paul said:

why is it such a big deal that they have equal access to everything?

Well, how would you feel, if people excluded you from society and equal access to everything based on your gender?

[Tanz]

29 minutes ago, tadpole said:

Well, how would you feel, if people excluded you from society and equal access to everything based on your gender?

Which exclusions are you talking about?

In things like college admissions, race and gender both exclude one group and include another while overlooking academic performance.  If you solely focus on academic performance, then you exclude another group. When it comes to these things, as with just about everything, things are not so black and white.  

[Tefikos]

Yes, it might not be a good idea to make every structure there is, in the world equal for everyone. But The focus should be in the feeling, that most trans folks feel.

Why do they feel the way they feel and how we as a society could make it better for them? Not everyone need to feel the need to do so, but small group of people can make a huge difference how safe, seen and valued they feel inside.

This is a problem for them and it should be taken seriously.

[Buck Edwards]

They want the same dignity, worth and respect that's afforded to other general members of society. They don't want a differential treatment. 

[Tanz]

2 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

They want the same dignity, worth and respect that's afforded to other general members of society. They don't want a differential treatment. 

Except for puppies, cute children, and gorgeous women, someone from royal blood, most people worldwide have to earn respect.  I have had women reject me and tell me to my face I'm too short for them.  My feelings were hurt initially, but expecting them to give me a chance would be unreasonable. 

Nonetheless, its good to have a conversation on treating trans people fairly but we have to be real here, they aren't going to cast a trans Wonder Woman to make trans people feel better.  Someone like Gal Gadot will make a room stop and look at her with awe, that's why they cast her as Wonder Woman.  
 

[Danioover9000]

@John Paul

10 hours ago, John Paul said:

I don’t understand the big debate around Trans people and Trans kids… why is it such a big deal that they have equal access to everything? I understand that this is a “sd stage green” issue but I was hoping someone would explore the logic of this issue with me. 
 

is it just to troll the right?

   Because Trans gendered people, like any other minority group, does get attacked, verbally or even physically by the majority. So, this is why they need rights and some protection from abuse

[zurew]

The problems regarding rights are coming from a deeper place that are rarely or almost never talked about or addressed.

The fact of the matter is that, we need to reevaluate or explore in a deeper way concepts like: what does that mean to be a women vs men (regarding every aspects of our life - social interactions , medically, sexually, what it means to be a part of a certain category); how should we categorize people and based on the social interaction or problem, which category should hold more weight and why; how much of our own definitions of men and women align with reality and with our social interactions in general vs just giving reductive definitions; exploring the connection and the relationship between the subjective(how you identify / identity in general) and the objective (your physical appearance and characteristics that are measurable) from both an individualistic pov and from society's pov; in the past how did we do all those things above and how much of that is dogma and might need to be changed vs practical and valuable and sufficient enough .

Edited April 11, 2023 by zurew

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

3 hours ago, zurew said:

The problems regarding rights are coming from a deeper place that are rarely or almost never talked about or addressed.

The fact of the matter is that, we need to reevaluate or explore in a deeper way concepts like: what does that mean to be a women vs men (regarding every aspects of our life - social interactions , medically, sexually, what it means to be a part of a certain category); how should we categorize people and based on the social interaction or problem, which category should hold more weight and why; how much of our own definitions of men and women align with reality and with our social interactions in general vs just giving reductive definitions; exploring the connection and the relationship between the subjective(how you identify / identity in general) and the objective (your physical appearance and characteristics that are measurable) from both an individualistic pov and from society's pov; in the past how did we do all those things above and how much of that is dogma and might need to be changed vs practical and valuable and sufficient enough .

   Isn't the OP more concerned for the safety and well being of the trans community? By having more legal rights doesn't this prevent, even if a little it, discriminations to them by the majority groups? 

[John Paul]

Aren’t Trans people protected from violence like the rest of us?

why are we debating about teaching kids what trans is? This is honestly outrageous from the perspective of the right.

[Buck Edwards]

5 hours ago, Tanz said:

Except for puppies, cute children, and gorgeous women, someone from royal blood, most people worldwide have to earn respect.  I have had women reject me and tell me to my face I'm too short for them.  My feelings were hurt initially, but expecting them to give me a chance would be unreasonable. 

Nonetheless, its good to have a conversation on treating trans people fairly but we have to be real here, they aren't going to cast a trans Wonder Woman to make trans people feel better.  Someone like Gal Gadot will make a room stop and look at her with awe, that's why they cast her as Wonder Woman.  
 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the general rights of Trans people. It's about their recognition and not about making them feel better. It's about letting them not feel unaccepted or discriminated against in social settings. 

[Danioover9000]

   So, where's our common sense meter at? Is it common sense to not do violence or demonize strange looking people, or is it common sense to not give these people rights and recognition and continue discriminating trans people?

[Thought Art]

This is actually a really complicated subject and I think very few see it clearly. It’s no where near as cut and dry as “not giving a particular group equal rights”. The whole trans phenomenon is so complicated and tricky to grasp it as it’s core. If you are right or left you won’t be able to see it. If you are pro trans or against trans you can’t see it. 
 

You have to be willing to observe various perspectives and interpretations of the phenomenon, it’s history, it’s risks, it’s pros and cons, and be honest about the dangers that the phenomenon could cause, or if there are benefits. 
 

You have to stop being scared of being labelled a transphobe. If that’s something you fear your not gonna be able to see the issues clearly. You have to stop being scared of being seen as pro trans as that impedes your ability to see the problem clearly. 

Trans issues don’t just affect trans people but families, parents, men, women, and children. We all share this world and it’s important we see clearly what is happening.

It’s a hard thing to grok because you have to be willing to see the issue through all the parties involved. 
 

There is also bad epistemology, science, psychology and various other cultural factors that are going into play with the trans phenomenon. 

Also what is happening in post secondary education, and the bullying and attacking of anyone who questions trans idealogy I think is a problem. 

 

This issue requires a deep willing to observe over long periods of time, checking your biases and allowing recontextualization to happen over time.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Thought Art

[Israfil]

 

52 minutes ago, John Paul said:

why are we debating about teaching kids what trans is?

This is troublesome. Why are we focusing so much on the gender and sexual orientation of children? Why can't we let these questions naturally arise and deal with them as they do, instead of focusing so much on the different categories you can fit into?

There comes a time when we naturally define our sexual identity and we seek the knowledge to handle this problem. I see no reason to constantly expose pre-pubescent children to so much unnecessary sexual information. Sexual education for children should be focused on abuse prevention. Sexual identity is a very delicate part of one's personality. It shouldn't be influenced like that.

[Buck Edwards]

1 minute ago, Israfil said:

 

This is troublesome. Why are we focusing so much on the gender and sexual orientation of children? Why can't we let these questions naturally arise and deal with them as they do, instead of focusing so much on the different categories you can fit into?

There comes a time when we naturally define our sexual identity and we seek the knowledge to handle this problem. I see no reason to constantly expose pre-pubescent children to so much unnecessary sexual information. Sexual education for children should be focused on abuse prevention. Sexual identity is a very delicate part of one's personality. It shouldn't be influenced like that.

This is a valid point but what makes you believe that letting children understand sexuality is harmful to them especially given the current circumstances where children have increasingly been curious about their identity?

[John Paul]

4 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

This is a valid point but what makes you believe that letting children understand sexuality is harmful to them especially given the current circumstances where children have increasingly been curious about their identity?

Are they getting more curious because of their environment? 

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, John Paul said:

Are they getting more curious because of their environment? 

Possibly. 

[Israfil]

24 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

This is a valid point but what makes you believe that letting children understand sexuality is harmful to them especially given the current circumstances where children have increasingly been curious about their identity?

This just increases the overall sexual obsession that fills our culture. Why are you teaching someone sexually immature about sex? Why don't we spend that energy to create the other socialization foundations that will lead to healthy exploration and discovery of sex and sexual identity when the time is due? If children do not feel sexual desire, why the need to discuss sexual preference? These things should be taught during puberty.

[John Paul]

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

This just increases the overall sexual obsession that fills our culture. Why are you teaching someone sexually immature about sex? Why don't we spend that energy to create the other socialization foundations that will lead to healthy exploration and discovery of sex and sexual identity when the time is due? If children do not feel sexual desire, why the need to discuss sexual preference? These things should be taught during puberty.

I agree. We should be focusing on basic family values, math and science, English, maybe Spanish, basic history etc.