My position on incest

[trenton]

In my opinion the moral arguments against incest are very weak for a number of reasons. They depend almost entirely on emotional assertions, arbitrary family lines, the assumption that only living beings of the same species can be part of a family and the assumption of unprotected sex. I will present the counter arguments to these non sensical moral assertions.

First of all, our extended family is way larger than most people are willing to admit. If you believe in the Bible for example, then we all came from Adam and Eve.

The argument of extended family is not limited to religion, and applies to science as well. If humans evolved from other creatures, making us genetic relatives of apes for instance, then why can't the animals from which we evolved be considered our ancestors? That would technically make it incest even if I had sex with a monkey because it is my very distant cousin.

Furthermore, why do we assume that reproduction can only be done with living beings? If you follow the tree of evolution to the beginning, then we all came from multiplying single cell organisms, making them our very distant ancestors.

In fact, all of these cells came from matter and energy that originated from the big bang and ultimately formed the universe as we know it. If everything originated from nothing, then why don't we consider the universe itself our God father? The source of life itself would be the beginning of our family, making us all children of the big bang or of God.

All beings are interconnected through evolution. The branch of evolution is not limited to living beings. Non living beings are also part of our family. Ultimately, we are all born of the universe which is its own being and its own family. Finally, if we are all one, then there are no separate beings. Therefore, you are always having sex with yourself because the universe is happening within you, not without you.

That is my main argument against the moral assertions of incest. My secondary argument includes cultural relativism, because in Egypt they encouraged incest. Although there were genetic defects, this can be avoided through protected sex. From there the emotional assertions are groundless because some people like having sex with other family members. The only real issue with incest is that if someone believes it is immoral, then it will become non consensual. Other than that, there is no sound argument. The universe is your immediate family.

What do you think about incest?

[Realms of Wonder]

I dont.

 

[Arthogaan]

I think that after certain stage of development it is totally obvious that if a couple does not plan to have children incest is totally fine.

[Leo Gura]

Just admit you wanna fuck your sister.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

I think the taboo about cousin marriages is mostly unjustified because the rise in the risk of genetic dysfunctions is still very small. However, even doing that over generations might lead to weaker stock that is more vulnerable to unexpected environmental change or some new disease. The royal families of 1800's Europe were notoriously vulnerable to haemophilia, a horrible disease. Queen victoria transmitted it to the son of Czar Nikolai the second. 

In nature, sex exists for a reason and that is to have genetic diversity so as to be more adaptable to your changing environment and all kinds of viruses and diseases. Organisms that do not reproduce via sex like mourning gecko's have in a sense an advantage in that they don't need to waste precious energy finding a mate and they can multiply very fast and efficiently but on the other hand a small change in their environment can kill them off 100% because they are all literally exact genetic copies of each other. 

@trenton I know you want to leave "unprotected sex" out of this, even though that's kinda impossible (especially when we talk about societal normalization). But ask yourself this: do you want to live in a country or society where incest is normalized? 
Do you think that this society will be a healthy one?
 

[Arthogaan]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Just admit you wanna fuck your sister.

Or daddy Leo 

[zurew]

10 hours ago, trenton said:

What do you think about incest?

There is no strong argument against it, so morally it isn't bad.

Would I do it? Personally I wouldn't, but I wouldn't consider it immoral.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Do you think that this society will be a healthy one?

What do you mean by a "healthy one" - are your mostly referring to genetic dysfunctions? - because if so, then the argument you would use for that wouldn't be exclusive to incest, and could be used in different contexts as well (for example what if we know that your child could inherit from you with x% chance different kind of bad diseases - should you be prevented from having children - or how do you parse moral questions like that?)

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

However, even doing that over generations might lead to weaker stock that is more vulnerable to unexpected environmental change or some new disease.

This assumes, that people will almost never date outside their family , and I don't think that would be the case in general.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

The royal families of 1800's Europe were notoriously vulnerable to haemophilia, a horrible disease.

Yeah but those elite families tried to keep their bloodline "clean", and werent doing incest just because they were necessarily attracted to each other. If you take out the necessity for keeping your bloodline "clean", then I think you would see that people in general would be attracted to people outside their close relative circle.

One argument for that is the Westermarck effect:

Quote

In order to avoid inbreeding, humans and other animals develop a strong sexual aversion to individuals with whom they have lived closely in infancy and early childhood (usually biological siblings)

So in general you will be sexually disgusted towards your siblings, and because of that, generally you will be more likely to date outside your family, therefore being worried that the normalization of incest would destroy society is not that strong of an argument.

Edited April 4, 2023 by zurew

[something_else]

I mean, there is also nothing morally wrong with smearing shit all over yourself and your partner for sexual pleasure, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people find it pretty disgusting.

There are biological mechanisms in place which make things like that and incest seem disgusting to most humans.

[trenton]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just admit you wanna fuck your sister.

@Leo Gura

Yes,

I actually did do something with my sister. I was pretty young and so was she. We ended up in a ton of trouble with mom. After the fact I started telling myself it was just a nightmare, but I was aware of the self deception. We put our private parts in each other's faces.

Ever since I had tons of issues with self trust, anxiety, and more. For some reason I hated myself and I felt a ton of weight from that event for pretty much the rest of my life up until this point. I spent some of yesterday just laying in bed crying over everything that happened.

I am doing my best to trust myself and stop doubting myself. The constant anxiety and underlying depression is painful and I don't want it to translate into suicidal thoughts which it often did. My therapist knew about all of this, but for some reason we never discussed it, so I probably need a different therapist.

After I was done crying, I felt better for a moment and then suddenly thought of all of this. This was my younger sister.

My older sister is the one I sometimes think about having sex with, but I never bring it up because that would make everything worse. I started thinking I should kill myself for a moment again. So, yes I want to fuck my sister.

[LSD-Rumi]

I have incest fantasies from time to time, there is nothing wrong with it. But the more spiritual I become, the more "cleaner" things I seek. No kinks, no orgies fantasies, no cuckold fantasies, just vanilla sex.

[LSD-Rumi]

1 minute ago, RebornConsciousness said:

Why not fuck your own mother, while we're at it?

We may be all one, but that doesn't mean all laws of this reality suddenly stop working. And that any offspring comming from that type of relationship wouldn't come out of the womb

There is literally nothing wrong with fucking your mom. Just use protection or pills while doing it, lol.

Edited April 4, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[Leo Gura]

@trenton Stop concocting stories and just sit with the truth of your desires. Do not demonize yourself. Allow yourself to have your desire and love yourself as you are.

The suppression of the desire is killing you.

Also, forgive yourself for the things that happened between you and your sister.

This is a powerful lesson in self-love and honesty.

The other part of this solution is to take responsibility for your sex life and get that part of your life handled. I doubt you would fantasize about your sisters if you were banging a hot girlfriend, or even just doing pickup. If you are stuck in scarcity really badly you will have all sorts of oddball fantasies. The solution is to handle your dating life.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

When all dualities collapse

[LSD-Rumi]

1 minute ago, RebornConsciousness said:

Imagine you impregnate your own mother. You would be making a son/daughter and a brother/sister at the same time. A bit mindfucky to think about LOL

I would be wearing a condom duh. And if she got pregnnt, we will have an abortion. 

Decouple incest from incest birth

[Girzo]

Guys, how blind.

The first argument against incest is the existence of power hierarchies, in society, but also in the family. Approving of having sex with your family is some hardcore post-modernist position, nothing to do with morality, it messes with a crucial structure of society. If you don't see how that can lead to pathologies, then I don't know what to tell you. Imagine a powerless daughter under despotic father and normalization of incest sex at the same time. This is not a fair dynamic. It would lead to enormous amounts of abuse.

Second argument is, even if everything is consensual, having sex with you family members stiflles growth of the individual. Sexual interaction with people outside of your inner circle is what grows a person, one of the strongest growth motivators (until it does its job and finally grow you as a human being to some reasonable degree of maturity). Having sexual gratification guaranteed by your family is counter to that process.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

Imagine a powerless daughter under despotic father and normalization of incest sex at the same time. This is not a fair dynamic. It would lead to enormous amounts of abuse.

The Power dynamic problem isn't exclusive to incest either. Even if you can defend that argument, the max you can achieve with it is to reject some forms of incest, but you won't be able to reject the whole category of incest. - What about 2 twins having sex together?

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

Having sexual gratification guaranteed by your family is counter to that process.

This isn't related to morality. Not having growth or having less growth isn't immoral, but I wouldn't even say that you necessarily will grow a lot less if you are into incest.

1) You can still have a  poly or an open relationship or you don't even have to have a partner relationship with your family member it can be exclusively about hooking up.

2) When it comes to growth from a relationship, most of that growth and maturing comes from being able to maintain the relationship and not from landing one. 

If you want to bring up "but what about rejection?"- You can get and will get rejected for all sorts of reasons outside of dating. That kind of character growth can be achieved outside of dating and most people won't even get through that much rejections. People in general are not into cold approach. - in short you don't have to go through a fuckboy phase in order for you to have character development.

[Vrubel]

For the record: IT'S NOT OKAY TO DO ACTUAL INCEST! 
you can argue your open-mindedness and progressiveness all you want but go ahead, and have actual sex with a sibling or parent. How will this impact your life?

In the real world, people will fuck a donkey before they have sex with a sibling. realistically incest only happens in situations of hardcore isolation, absolute innocence/ignorance (like with mentally challenged people or sexually immature children), or as abuse and rape. 

It is however totally okay to have fantasies and to make certain projections onto a sexual partner. Whatever get you off.

[LSD-Rumi]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 

 

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

you can argue your open-mindedness and progressiveness all you want but go ahead, and have actual sex with a sibling or parent. How will this impact your life?

Real philosophy must be met with actions. A homewrok for all of us, go fuck your sister, brother at the weekend and report back your experience

Edited April 4, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[Vrubel]

I would say that incest fantasies are part of the sexual process of the human mind. A mother's warmth and feminity is basically every guys most primal and meaningful interaction with the feminine, his mind will sexualize this energy because that is how he interacts with all other feminine energies post-puberty. Subconsciously he seeks in women for the same energy as received from his mother. 

This whole thing is similar to women fantasizing about rape but not wanting the actual rape. Some people on this thread sound like girls arguing for rape just because they have the fantasies. 

[mmKay]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When all dualities collapse

Add to strangeloop thread ?