Thoughts on non-dual teachers?

[Girzo]

Tolle has great guru skills, his way of talking is very calming. A good entertainer. He wins the comparison in terms of who is nicer to listen to.

Adyashanti is an intellectual with great talks. His thoughts are way more cognitively stimulating. Tolle is not that bright in terms of analysis and conceptual thought.

[Moksha]

In his book "10% Happier", Dan Harris describes meeting Eckhart Tolle and Deepak Chopra. He felt that Tolle was sincere but questioned Tolle's sanity, and he thought Chopra was sane, but questioned Chopra's sincerity.

I agree with Harris  People see the enlightened as insane, and the enlightened see people as insane. Choose your asylum.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Moksha

[Forza-Spirito]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

one day I reached enlightenment, suddenly a different being took possession of my body and I took my first steps. the 25 years of meditation I did have nothing to do with this.

yes it seems to me that he has changed his teaching style over the years, maybe when they get older they all start talking like neo-advaita, I don't know! ??

[Salvijus]

19 hours ago, Forza-Spirito said:

 

 

 

Uuu nice.

[Moksha]

@Jehovah increases Nice observations, I agree with you. The infinite internal highway is the ever-deepening direct realization of absolute reality, within the dream. When the dream finally ends for a form, it dissolves and its essence resolves into the absolute that imagines the form. The essence never actually is defined, but within the dream it appears as such.

As a pointer, I prefer infinite highway to non-dual highway since the latter can become a conceptual trap. Your insight about the highway never going anywhere, nor the people on it, reminds me:

The awakened sages call a person wise when all his undertakings are free from anxiety about results; all his selfish desires have been consumed in the fire of knowledge. The wise, ever satisfied, have abandoned all external supports. Their security is unaffected by the results of their action; even while acting, they really do nothing at all.

[Moksha]

5 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

https://laotzu.xyz/chapter/display?id=27

?

[OldManCorcoran]

If what they're saying sounds like nonsense, then it's nonsense. Every teacher has delusional idiot followers, they would believe anything.

If someone actually understands a topic well they can frame it in many different ways and provide 101 pointers, until you understand the message being communicated. If the message is delivered in obfuscated language, or sounds like a riddle, it's just bullshit.

[OldManCorcoran]

On 03/04/2023 at 1:35 PM, Forza-Spirito said:

yes it seems to me that he has changed his teaching style over the years, maybe when they get older they all start talking like neo-advaita, I don't know! ??

It's because it's blatantly correct, but the idiot followers repeat the same thing without actually understanding it, and turn it into what sounds like some cryptic riddle. And some of the teachers make a living by ensuring they seem to possess secret wisdom.

The people who understand the topic can explain it easily on request in a manner you would understand. It isn't actually a complex topic at all.

[Water by the River]

14 hours ago, Squeekytoy said:

https://laotzu.xyz/chapter/display?id=27

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

If someone actually understands a topic well they can frame it in many different ways and provide 101 pointers, until you understand the message being communicated. If the message is delivered in obfuscated language, or sounds like a riddle, it's just bullshit.

Agree with you that many so-called spiritual teachers (especially those identifying as such) intentionally obfuscate their teachings in order to appear mysterious and wise. Run far away.

That said, sometimes the teaching points to the absolute and only appears to be bullshit on the surface. I remember my first encounter with "The Power of Now", and my bullshit meter going haywire. I set the book aside, and it wasn't until years later that I gave it another shot. To my surprise it actually resonated. The teaching didn't change, but my readiness for it did.

I sometimes look at things I post in this forum and laugh. If my earlier self read most of what it writes now, it wouldn't just dismiss the writings as mystical bullshit, it would toss them into the fire.

[Tanz]

Teachers can only help you a fraction of the way, maybe 5 or 10 percent.  

Maybe Adyashanti has taken psychedelics but is too scared of being judged, for it might alienate his zen community.   I find him one of the better teachers on the list; even then, they can only help you so far compared to the following teachers.  

We are talking about the difference between masterbators(teachers) vs. an actual vagina (God in infinate incarnation)

[Yimpa]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:56 AM, Tanz said:

We are talking about the difference between masterbators(teachers) vs. an actual vagina (God in infinate incarnation)

Lmao!

[Lilia]

@Illusory Self Thank you for starting the thread. I have been pondering the same question and learnt a lot from the responses here.

For me, effective teaching is about effective communication. To tell an effective teacher, I would observe:

Does the teacher make the effort to bridge the gap between themselves and the student's level of development?

For instance, in Ukraine, where I live, most people practice Purple or Blue spirituality. So even if they get glimpses of what they are, they paint it in pagan or traditional orthodox colours. It is up to the teacher to understand this and not expect their students to interpret the teaching from, say, the Turquoise standpoint, where the teacher may be. Even if super-well-spoken teachers such as Eckhart or Rupert came to teach in Ukraine, their communication would be way over most people's heads. Some people may memorise the words of the teachings, but very few will experience what the words point to. 

To bridge the gap, it's effective if the teacher can speak the questioner's 'language'. You can use pretty much any cultural scheme to communicate enlightenment, given you understand the scheme from the inside well enough. Rupert Spira does it well. Whether the student asks a question in 'scientific terms' or 'the law of attraction terms', Rupert will pick up their language and try to use it throughout his response to communicate with that individual.

The least effective way of teaching IMO is when a teacher speaks down at a student and expects the student to step up to his or her level of consciousness without even trying to meet the student where the latter is.

I also doubt the efficacy of 'transmissions'. 

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, Lilia said:

Does the teacher make the effort to bridge the gap between themselves and the student's level of development?

Hi @Lilia it's great to have you on the forum, and deepest regards to you and your loved ones in Ukraine.

I have been contemplating this as well. The best teachers are a prism through which the light of the absolute shines, communicating at different frequencies. Each color is close enough to the learner's current understanding that it resonates and takes them to a higher frequency. It is all the same light, suited to the needs of the learner.

It's not enough for the teacher to be entirely selfless. Absolute white doesn't resonate with most people. The teacher needs to learn to be selflessly shrewd.

Another analogy is the ladder of enlightenment. If the teacher only extends a ladder that is missing all but the highest rung, how can anyone climb it? The ladder needs to include all rungs.

It's why Jesus taught in parables. They are more scalable. In his early days, Ramana Maharshi taught silence as the deepest truth. Eventually he learned to teach at lower levels, since silence was unattainable by most of his students.

The absolute realizes itself in forms, and through them projects its light to help realize itself in other forms. It is cascading waves of light within the dream.

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

Hi @Lilia it's great to have you on the forum, and deepest regards to you and your loved ones in Ukraine.

I have been contemplating this as well. The best teachers are a prism through which the light of the absolute shines, communicating at different frequencies. Each color is close enough to the learner's current understanding that it resonates and takes them to a higher frequency. It is all the same light, suited to the needs of the learner.

It's not enough for the teacher to be entirely selfless. Absolute white doesn't resonate with most people. The teacher needs to learn to be selflessly shrewd.

Another analogy is the ladder of enlightenment. If the teacher only extends a ladder that is missing all but the highest rung, how can anyone climb it? The ladder needs to include all rungs.

It's why Jesus taught in parables. They are more scalable. In his early days, Ramana Maharshi taught silence as the deepest truth. Eventually he learned to teach at lower levels, since silence was unattainable by most of his students.

The absolute realizes itself in forms, and through them projects its light to help realize itself in other forms. It is cascading waves of light within the dream.

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Lilia said:

I also doubt the efficacy of 'transmissions'. 

For the right person, they can be devastatingly effective. Besides, I don't buy that a teacher only teaches through their words. It happens at every level of their being: behavioral, emotional, intellectual, energetic. You can know this if you hang out with a depressed person all day vs. a happy person. They're "teaching" you their mental state.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Lilia]

@Carl-Richard I hear what you are saying. 

After all, wouldn't transmission be the ability of a form of Source to produce a recognition of Itself?

If the presence of a teacher can induce the direct experience of the Primordial State in a student, and that's enough to call the transmission effective, I'll grant you that 

But would it have a transformational effect on the student's sense of self? Or would it remain a 'something the guru gave me, for which I've got to go and see my guru again?' That varies hugely, I think, and depends on the student's level of development.

Btw, in my experience, the most successful transmission-ers have been non-human. As Leo puts it, something as mundane as a toilet or a screw can trigger God-realization. Which is also a sort of transmission, if we would frame it that way!

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Lilia said:

@Carl-Richard I hear what you are saying. 

After all, wouldn't transmission be the ability of a form of Source to produce a recognition of Itself?

If the presence of a teacher can induce the direct experience of the Primordial State in a student, and that's enough to call the transmission effective, I'll grant you that 

When I think of transmission, I usually think of the tendency of humans to influence each other at subtler levels than thought or language, but it technically happens at every level of their being. That is fundamentally what empathy is, although that word is mostly used in the emotional domain. But you could extend it to non-human things as well, as everything influences your mental state. For inducing a more primordial state, nature walks are an obvious option, or looking at a vast landscape or large mountains.

 

7 hours ago, Lilia said:

But would it have a transformational effect on the student's sense of self? Or would it remain a 'something the guru gave me, for which I've got to go and see my guru again?' That varies hugely, I think, and depends on the student's level of development.

I think those things often depend on learning through concepts, or at least through experience, but it can also happen spontaneously.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, Lilia said:

Btw, in my experience, the most successful transmission-ers have been non-human. As Leo puts it, something as mundane as a toilet or a screw can trigger God-realization. Which is also a sort of transmission, if we would frame it that way!

Reading your comment as I’m sat on the toilet 

[M A J I]

The best way is the way that resonates most with you.

They are all good teachers in their own unique way, what they share to the mind is near-impossible, but from the point of view of the 'true self' it is fundamentally simple. What's complex for a student is simple for the professor. Graduation has yet to occur.

I prefer reading Buddha's scrips or the teachings of Lao Tzu

Tao Te Ching is arguably the greatest spiritual book of truth there is.

Its the Ultimate bible in my opinion.