I Meditate To Be Normal

[Primeval]

You may have heard of Depersonalization & Derealization Disorder. Shinzen Young has dubbed it "Enlightenment's Evil Twin". I'm intensely aware of this condition. I've been Dissociated for over 13 years, non-stop, 24/7.

For those not knowledgeable of depersonalization, it's a state of mind/being of feeling a loss of one's self, which can include out of body sensations, autopilot/robotic like "going through the motions" bodily actions. Having a completely blank mind is not an uncommon symptom, this means actually have no inner monologue of thoughts. There is also a lack of emotions which definitely becomes anhedonia, loss of pleasurable sensations to experiences one would normally enjoy. There is also a removing from life before DP/DR, so that memories from before no longer feel like yours, as if one is now in an entirely different reality and any thing before DP/DR is now felt as a completely different past lifetime/dimension. Another frequent symptom related to the previous one is losing felt connection to loved ones, friends, family, partners. This is a very basic and rough summation of depersonaliation, and each person going through it may have any number of these symptoms to varying degrees and have their own unique symptoms, everyone is different. There is also Derealization which is basically the outward projection of the same neurosis, i.e. reality seems fake/like a dream/sometimes people start seeing in 2D vision.

Well what is the problem you ask? This sounds like enlightenment, almost? No it's not really. The blank mind is akin to being in a really interesting conversation and having something important to say but then you lose your train of thought. Except with DP/DR and Blank Mind, one feels that "loss of train of thought" 24/7. It's not a blissful state of ego transcendence. It's more like being drunk where you cannot possibly work on overcoming your ego because your state of mind is below the necessary threshold of awareness to address the ego. Another symptom I have is feeling like 13 years has been one really long moment in time. Before dissociation I recall that each moment was "segmented", like going to sleep and waking up to a new day. Well for me and some others with DP/DR, time is vanished and there is no "new day" or different "moment by moment" experience of reality. However, this is not an experience of being Present in the Now. It's an experience of being ever NOT present in the Now. It feels like total disconnection with life on every level. How do you overcome life's illusion when you are removed from life and always aware of this removal? That's what I am dealing with.

Here's a video by Shinzen Young about "Enlightenment's Evil Twin": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zIKQCwDXsA

Anyways, when I first became this way, I started looking into Meditation. I went to a local Zen Center at first. I then worked my way through different teachers such as Eckhart Tolle and Jiddu Krishnamurti. My goal has always been to find a way back to reality, to meditate or gain an insight leading out of DP/DR, to restore my sense of self.

You see... your normal... is the enlightenment that I seek.

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Lha Bho
Because Dragons

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Lha Bho said:

How do you overcome life's illusion when you are removed from life and always aware of this removal?

I play 'rise of nations' and 'age of mythology'  on my computer. 

[Arman]

Wow. That is intense. Thanks for sharing. How long have you been practicing now and has it had any moderate effect on your experience? 

[Nahm]

Any other factors come to mind at all? That could be a variable in this maybe? ?

[Heart of Space]

This might not be something you want to hear, meditation or enlightenment seeking may not fix the problem entirely.  It's still a good thing for you to do, because it would elevate suffering caused by the problem, but ultimately you may just have to accept your current situation.  I don't have that exact same issue, but I've had to do something very similar.  

Ultimately the content of consciousness, however flawed you perceive it, does not really matter for enlightenment.  

I'm sorry for your situation.  I hope you don't take my post as patronizing, I don't intend to be.  I relate to your original post in some ways.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Heart of Space

[Leo Gura]

@Lha Bho I wonder what a dose of MDMA or other psychedelic would do for a person with DP/DR. It may pop you out of your mental rut. Like kicking a stuck computer.

Seems like you're missing the experience of divine love.

So are you conscious of what you are? Or what reality is? If not, you're not enlightened, and what you should be shooting for is actual enlightenment, not "normal". Your desire to become "normal" is already evidence of your ego-mind being normal. That's exactly how a normal mind acts. It's seeking states and experiences because it knows nothing else.

The solution is always MORE awareness, not less. You need awareness of how your mind is twisting around and getting hung up on itself.

Your mind is doing something wonky, because otherwise you should be aware of the beauty of reality. Which suggests to me that you may not be as aware as you think you are. Or maybe you have a physiological brain issue.

I bet you that an actual enlightenment experience would pop you out of your rut. Have you had any?

[Principium Nexus]

I can relate so much to having a blank mind most of the time and had some DR/DP for a while due stress related issues and an intense experience on mushrooms.

Having no thoughts can be really serene when not having to talk to someone and becoming one with the moment, like meditating on sounds (birds, trafic, etc.) and gives you an advantage in resting in the now (or where your mind is).

Now your mind is blank and you have to talk to someone, for you it might be hard to think about what you want to say and that the information exchange is happening at a very high rate that you feel you can't anticipate fast enough. This is a tension you still carry due some emotions that indeed fragments your experience.

Does this create a feeling of restlesness? If so you want to anticipate too fast and this is what disconnects you from the moment.

Your actually in your mind all the time but the thinking is not done in words but in feelings. The feelings of tenseness/having to respond/act are caused by how you think things will progress in a conversation or act but because you hold onto this idea you fixated the free flowing process of thoughts.

If I still make any sense to this point, learn to let go of any preconceptions/emotions that normally control you.

Do you have any traumatic experiences? This could be the main cause that you still haven't digested.

I wouldn't try psychedelics they are not the best thing you can do right now. MDMA would be more suitable if you would even try that.

Try to work on it without the use of substances, since this will have the best overall longterm improvements.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[SMC]

Wow that's..... ya. You put that so beautifully. Couldn't even ask for help on that trying my best. 

[Primeval]

On 3/11/2017 at 7:54 PM, Prabhaker said:

I play 'rise of nations' and 'age of mythology'  on my computer. 

Lol good one. But I think you misunderstood what I meant there. I feel like I cannot work on meditation/ego in the sense that one couldn't exercise a broken leg. First I've got to heal my leg, then I can do the exercising.

 

On 3/11/2017 at 8:50 PM, Arman said:

Wow. That is intense. Thanks for sharing. How long have you been practicing now and has it had any moderate effect on your experience? 

Thanks, I've been practicing on and off since 2003. I can say that the days that I have been practicing regularly have been the best times I've had. Even though I'm still in a substantial amount of suffering from the DP/DR anyway. It's like putting ice on the injury.

 

On 3/11/2017 at 9:00 PM, Nahm said:

Any other factors come to mind at all? That could be a variable in this maybe? ?

I've thought maybe this could be a form of the Dark Night of the Soul.

 

On 3/11/2017 at 9:08 PM, Heart of Space said:

This might not be something you want to hear, meditation or enlightenment seeking may not fix the problem entirely.  It's still a good thing for you to do, because it would elevate suffering caused by the problem, but ultimately you may just have to accept your current situation.  I don't have that exact same issue, but I've had to do something very similar.  

Ultimately the content of consciousness, however flawed you perceive it, does not really matter for enlightenment.  

I'm sorry for your situation.  I hope you don't take my post as patronizing, I don't intend to be.  I relate to your original post in some ways.

Thanks, and I don't think your post is patronizing. I've heard from a lot of people with DP/DR that accepting it and moving on with life is pretty much the best thing to overcome the condition. Maybe seeking enlightenment despite it could be considered "moving on"?

 

On 3/11/2017 at 11:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Lha Bho I wonder what a dose of MDMA or other psychedelic would do for a person with DP/DR. It may pop you out of your mental rut. Like kicking a stuck computer.

Seems like you're missing the experience of divine love.

So are you conscious of what you are? Or what reality is? If not, you're not enlightened, and what you should be shooting for is actual enlightenment, not "normal". Your desire to become "normal" is already evidence of your ego-mind being normal. That's exactly how a normal mind acts. It's seeking states and experiences because it knows nothing else.

The solution is always MORE awareness, not less. You need awareness of how your mind is twisting around and getting hung up on itself.

Your mind is doing something wonky, because otherwise you should be aware of the beauty of reality. Which suggests to me that you may not be as aware as you think you are. Or maybe you have a physiological brain issue.

I bet you that an actual enlightenment experience would pop you out of your rut. Have you had any?

Hey Leo, I wouldn't say I'm enlightened. It feels actually the opposite, literally enlightenment's evil twin. I've taken MDMA before, it's good but it doesn't do the trick to bring me out of it, maybe if I did some alone and meditated at the same time?

 

 

On 3/12/2017 at 0:59 AM, Principium Nexus said:

I can relate so much to having a blank mind most of the time and had some DR/DP for a while due stress related issues and an intense experience on mushrooms.

Having no thoughts can be really serene when not having to talk to someone and becoming one with the moment, like meditating on sounds (birds, trafic, etc.) and gives you an advantage in resting in the now (or where your mind is).

Now your mind is blank and you have to talk to someone, for you it might be hard to think about what you want to say and that the information exchange is happening at a very high rate that you feel you can't anticipate fast enough. This is a tension you still carry due some emotions that indeed fragments your experience.

Does this create a feeling of restlesness? If so you want to anticipate too fast and this is what disconnects you from the moment.

Your actually in your mind all the time but the thinking is not done in words but in feelings. The feelings of tenseness/having to respond/act are caused by how you think things will progress in a conversation or act but because you hold onto this idea you fixated the free flowing process of thoughts.

If I still make any sense to this point, learn to let go of any preconceptions/emotions that normally control you.

Do you have any traumatic experiences? This could be the main cause that you still haven't digested.

I wouldn't try psychedelics they are not the best thing you can do right now. MDMA would be more suitable if you would even try that.

Try to work on it without the use of substances, since this will have the best overall longterm improvements.

It's definitely an immense feeling of restlessness. I've also had times where I've had feelings of oneness and at those times I wasn't suffering from the DP/DR. I think I should focus on the positive. I don't have any traumatic experiences besides the DP/DR and what comes with it. I have a friend who recovered from it and he feels like he has PTSD from having gone through the years of experiencing the DP/DR. I've heard MDMA can do wonders for PTSD. I'm considering looking into taking MDMA medicinally.

 

On 3/12/2017 at 4:17 AM, SMC said:

Wow that's..... ya. You put that so beautifully. Couldn't even ask for help on that trying my best. 

Thanks

[SMC]

@Lha Bho yw. Everything's going to go to be good don't worry. Be happy. 

[J]

Is there any more resources on this topic? I am seeing some correlations with the condition to my current state.  

[Primeval]

39 minutes ago, J said:

Is there any more resources on this topic? I am seeing some correlations with the condition to my current state.  

There is a forum similar to the set up as actualized.org forum: http://www.dpselfhelp.com 

And then there is a large group on facebook simply titled "Depersonalization" it's a 'closed group' so if you are on facebook and join the group then you'll not have to worry about people on your friends list seeing that group.

 

1 hour ago, SMC said:

@Lha Bho yw. Everything's going to go to be good don't worry. Be happy. 

Thanks @SMC

[Vingger]

There is no such a thing called normal

there is no right state of being,

there is only being, infinity being by itself as one

as always was and always will be

[Primeval]

@Vingger That's like saying a broken leg is still a leg. 

While true ...

... one cannot run the marathon with a broken leg.

[Vingger]

@Lha Bho You already win the marathon

but, first you have to go completely crazy to realize it,

you don't find yourself, need to go completely crazy until you only see and feel yourself, 

Because the fact is that only you is there, ever present, not really going anywhere.

the fact is all you ever see, feel or experience in life is made of yourself,

this disponibility, this pure knowing,

when you open your eyes and you experience seeing, 

¿how far is knowing from seeing?

¿what is left if you take this knowing from this seeing?

[Primeval]

Thanks @Vingger 

Any more insights?

[Primeval]

@Wormon Blatburm Thanks a lot! I've made some progress in living healthier, now I need to expand to a social circle and work on my financial situation. I've heard it a lot before: live life how you would if you didn't have dp, then you will recover from or at least overcome this condition!

[Vingger]

@Lha Bho i improved a lot by seeing other people at the same level than my body 

imagine your mind in a upper level, not speaking only to your body but everybody 

like, there is only one presence that is in all things and this voice speaks to it

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Vingger

[SMC]

@Lha Bho there's really two ways in life and the right way will always be hard, with so much greatness in the end of you are patient and work hard to do things the right way. The bad way will bring easy results fast only to bring you into a pit. keep doing Leo's worksheets and meditating and saving everything you can because in the end you will cash out more than you put in