Important! - Nobody On This Forum Is AWAKE

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

@Water by the River Nice, although the suggestion that there is something that can be done or learned still seems to be there.

There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path.

From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going.

@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. 

>There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path.

Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning.

In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style.

Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion.

Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). 

 

And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): 

"

Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. 
…
The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space

"

The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is.

Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state.

 

 

>From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going.

Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all.

Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g

You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show...

Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee:

 

and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side:

In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... 

And the short form, of all written above is:

The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! 

Enjoy the ride!

 

[CARDOZZO]

@OldManCorcoran  

[seriousman24]

What about hate, fear and suffering bros?

[Water by the River]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The only creature on this entire planet who is AWAKE. Is me.

No one else.

I shit you not.

Be very careful. You don't understand how deep this thing goes. It goes completely beyond any human comprehension.

Enlightenment is imaginary.

Every "enlightened" human on this planet is fooling themselves very deeply.

GOD is completely beyond all that.

This is not Leo speaking to you.

This is GOD, speaking through the Leo avatar.

I can only get through to you as much as you will allow me.

So be very careful about how you handle your mind.

Stylistically, (not the content), this reminded me on something I read in

Strassman, DMT and the Soul of Prophecy: A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible

Chapter 6 THE HEBREW BIBLE’S MODEL
The previous chapter ended with my concluding that the psychological, biophysical, Buddhist, or shamanic models I had brought to my research, or studied soon thereafter, did not satisfactorily account for all aspects of the DMT experience. They rejected the possibility that the contents of the DMT experience were objectively real, did not sufficiently attend to the highly interactive nature of the state, suffered from ethical shortcomings, or lacked cultural compatibility.

As I worked my way through the Hebrew Bible, the notion of prophecy began to press upon me. While its detailed characteristics were still vague, it clearly was a form of spiritual experience replete with voices, visions, extreme emotional and physical effects, and novel insights. In these respects, it resonated with the DMT volunteers’ reports. Even more compelling was that prophecy was interactive and relational. It was an exchange between humans and a usually invisible level of reality, one that is external, freestanding, and absolutely objective, at least as real as everyday life. Angels with characteristics much like the DMT beings populated that world, as did God, who created and sustained that world as well as this one. Those beings and God interacted with humans and with each other in much the same way as the research subjects described their own interactions with beings, and beings’ interactions with each other, in the DMT state.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Water by the River

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

To proclaim one's truth, is not necessarily an act of Ego. 

I agree, but am advocating proclaiming truth without the need for comparing your present state to the state of someone else. What matters is not whether a particular teacher is "more enlightened", but whether what is taught actually helps someone along their inner path of realization.

Consider:

1) Enlightenment is not a measurable state, which one can use to objectively place oneself higher or lower than someone else.

2) Each inner journey is entirely unique, and there is no universal roadmap. It is about discovering the pointers that help with your particular journey, and not being distracted by those that don't.

3) Quantity <> quality in the realm of spiritual insights. You could have hundreds of experiences which, even if there was a way to quantify them, collectively pale compared to a single brilliant realization that entirely aligns with your ultimate nature.

4) Comparisons between people are fraught with the potential for feeding the ego, regardless of how sincere they are. It is a writhing pit of snakes that is dangerous and avoidable.

5) Extreme claims, such as being the most enlightened creature on the planet, cater to the most vulnerable. People naturally gravitate to such claims, especially when they are hungry for answers and are promised that satiation is within reach.

[aurum]

15 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Hallucinogenic trip occurrences often have no relevance to what reality fundamentally is, though.

Who is defining what is and isn’t a hallucination? And how do you know your definition is valid? What if there is no meaningful distinction?

15 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Who cares if an alien supermind is imagining this galaxy to save its planet from an overfarming of fossil fuels? It has no relevance, since existence precedes the alien. In my mind it is of zero importance. There is only one worthwhile insight, in total ego death like breakthrough with the toad, and who cares about the rest?

If by alien supermind you are referring to Leo’s latest insights about Alien Consciousness, I would say we have no idea yet what Leo even means by this. He has said very little about it, and the little he has said, it seems clear he thinks it’s very important.

15 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

To be fair you can't expect to "verify" heavy drug trips without heavy drug trips.

This is probably true. Possibly there is another path, but it’s hard to say.

[Moksha]

2 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

Don't forget, Leo doesn't teach enlightenment anymore.

It's the anymore part that may give people pause. When I first joined the forum, I was lectured about referring to the theory (rather than the reality) of nonduality. Now it is alien consciousness. Stay tuned for the next episode in Leo's amazing adventure!

If people want to live by spiritual proxy and see the journey as entertainment that's fine, but nothing will improve the quality of their lives like direct experience.

I am not disparaging Leo. Setting aside that he has to support his family, and that a cascade of self-trumping claims serves this purpose, I feel that in his core Leo is sincere.

I am only asking people to be sincere themselves, and use that sincerity to dive deeply into the unchartered territory within.

[StarStruck]

 

1 hour ago, zurew said:

Change "Godz & shiii" to "Aliens & shiii" and you are good. Or please make a meme about people arguing who is more conscious.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by StarStruck

[Moksha]

@StarStruck  ?

[zurew]

@StarStruck Nice . 

Anyone who will get triggered by your memes, is not awake .

[WelcometoReality]

@StarStruck genius! ?

[StarStruck]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

@StarStruck Nice . 

Anyone who will get triggered by your memes, is not awake .

Leo told me I'm not awake because of the "shit I post" perhaps I'm the most awake ?

Edited March 26, 2023 by StarStruck

[OldManCorcoran]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Who is defining what is and isn’t a hallucination? And how do you know your definition is valid? What if there is no meaningful distinction?

If by alien supermind you are referring to Leo’s latest insights about Alien Consciousness, I would say we have no idea yet what Leo even means by this. He has said very little about it, and the little he has said, it seems clear he thinks it’s very important.

This is probably true. Possibly there is another path, but it’s hard to say.

It is valid because the fact of being precedes appearance. There is nothing to any particular appearance apart from the fact of its presence. Really think about what you refer to when saying "I am conscious of _" (like I am conscious of the sound of this music).

In any statement about being conscious of anything, you won't find reference to anything except the fact of presence. Isness. Being. Being conscious of _ (whatever thing, like music) = the presence of _, and that's all it is. Nothing more. It is literally a communication that something is present. That is the all it means.

Any perception from thought to sight, is perception. If it's a space alien made of sight, there is nothing to that except the visual phenomena which is the way the alien looks. If you believe you are the alien there might be the alien's thought perceptions. All of this is perceptions.

Fundamentally there is nothing to any of that apart from their presence. When the alien appears visually, the visual appearance of the alien is present. When the alien's thoughts appear, the appearance of alien thought is present. Presence is the fundamental reality.

The lack of distinction often referenced by gurus is to do with categorical divides. The same categorical divide which makes people do somersaults about life and death, because there is a concept that there will be a categorical shift across a divide from existence, which is thought to be a category containing all sorts of phenomena, and non existence which is conceptualized as eternal nothingness. People envision going into a dreamless sleep and never waking up. Actually, reality can freely and readily bleed between apparently distinct categories because categories are not actual. They are only thought perceptions, which are appearances, and are themselves not default to the fact of presence.

There is not nothing and something or existence and non existence, because these are divided categories existent only in the mind of the one who has the idea. And presence precedes all. Even a husk of an idea remaining of category will keep it lingering, much like the idea of entering non existence, there is no necessity for such a thing to ever be actual but as long as even a remnant of an idea that this reality has categories exists, we cannot envision eternal appearances without the opposite. It really has to be seen through that neither is actual otherwise at least some idea of how something ought to be will remain.

Because of the fact presence can cause a conceptual idea of what isn't present, as per the other categories above, it might not be a suitable word still. A suitable word would probably be something nonsensical that you make up, because such a term would not have an implied opposite. I know people enjoy the term God, Brahman, and various others. I think they are too humanized. So I would actually recommend making up a nonsense gibberish word instead. Honestly a nonsense word is the best way to destroy categorical thinking and to destroy any idea of traits being must have. Call it googlegoo or something, googlegoo doesn't create in the mind ideas of an opposing type of thing.

Anyway... Any conceivable idea is going to consist of perception. So I just do not understand why anyone finds it interesting what reality is aside from the sheer fact of being. It would be cool if our universe were inside a marble being played with by an alien, I would love that to be true. That would still be preceded by the sheer fact of presence, though. There isn't anything else.

Edited March 26, 2023 by OldManCorcoran

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show...

Ah yes Characters come and go.

[aurum]

7 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

It would be cool if our universe were inside a marble being played with by an alien, I would love that to be true. That would still be preceded by the sheer fact of presence, though. There isn't anything else.

That’s true. But I’m pretty sure a marble being played with by a physical alien is not literally what Leo is referring to. Men In Black is obviously a movie. It’s not going to be equivalent to whatever Leo is talking about.

You can argue that Alien Consciousness must be irrelevant because it must be preceded by Presence, but I don’t think Leo is overlooking this point. I’m going to give him more credit than that. That would be a very newbie mistake to make.

[Water by the River]

@aurum "If by alien supermind you are referring to Leo’s latest insights about Alien Consciousness, I would say we have no idea yet what Leo even means by this. "

Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings.

What is it that is aware of all of that? And what happens with that in Deep Sleep? What is that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself if nothing appears, but has the innate potential for sentience? That which can never not be?

If that understanding manifests in your mindstream and daily everday-life, I would be interested in how happy and blissful you are on a permanent basis. And how much you would still grasp about the Alien...

But then you would probably anyway go looking about this interesting Alien Supermind, but with a big smile on your face. When such a show comes into town....  I would go looking....  ( : 

PS: I am really curious what kind of stuff will be dragged in from the Multiverse into our little comfy imagined reality in the next decades...

Hopefully nothing that is too hungry for some poor souls...  ( :  But hey, if you look into history, they dragged quite some weird and hungry stuff from god knows which dimensions.... many of the first contactees could later be visited in insane asylums.

[OldManCorcoran]

11 minutes ago, aurum said:

That’s true. But I’m pretty sure a marble being played with by a physical alien is not literally what Leo is referring to. Men In Black is obviously a movie. It’s not going to be equivalent to whatever Leo is talking about.

You can argue that Alien Consciousness must be irrelevant because it must be preceded by Presence, but I don’t think Leo is overlooking this point. I’m going to give him more credit than that. That would be a very newbie mistake to make.

It would be cool though, wouldn't it? Lol. I genuinely would enjoy that to be the case.

I am also sure he is aware of the fundamental nature of reality, but see I just don't think anything other than that is relevant. Leo discussed infinity in the "other direction". That is why I stopped using DMT because it felt like I could go off down those rabbitholes, but as overwhelming as the states are, and as pathetic as I feel in comparison to the magnitude of the power of these twisted realms, it seems ultimately irrelevant. Smoking Salvia is very alien consciousness, you can't even coinceive that such a thing is possible. DMT can get even worse, especially if you take SSRIs, because you won't get a breakthrough at levels where you should, and instead be left in the most twisted nightmareish state of pure incomprehensible fuckedness. Realistically these drugs can rape you far beyond humanity. I'm not sure any of it ultimately matters though.

Edited March 26, 2023 by OldManCorcoran

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

It would be cool though, wouldn't it? Lol. I genuinely would enjoy that to be the case.

Actually I think the idea fails. Where did the alien come from?

At some point, the answer has to be pure Infinity.

5 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

That is why I stopped using DMT because it felt like I could go off down those rabbitholes, but as overwhelming as the states are, and as pathetic as I feel in comparison to the magnitude of the power of these twisted realms, it seems ultimately irrelevant. Smoking Salvia is very alien consciousness, you can't even coinceive that such a thing is possible. I'm not sure any of it matters.

Fair enough. I don’t think at this point we are supposed to understand Alien Consciousness or understand why Leo thinks it matters. Obviously that would come with more experience.

My point is simply that I’m open to it. If Leo thinks it matters, then I trust his opinion on this at least enough to investigate. I think he has earned that. If he is wrong, then that should also become clear. 

[aurum]

18 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings.

 

You don’t know that.

You don’t know what Leo means by Alien Consciousness. And neither do I. But I don’t think Leo is making such an obvious error.

Alternatively, if it just “more form”, then it’s clear he thinks it’s a highly relevant form. And maybe there’s good reason for that.

My point is we just don’t know. Let’s have a little bit of faith in Leo. He obviously feels it is important.

[Moksha]

20 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

@Moksha Thing is, it's not something one chooses in the first place. No matter what Leo teaches.

Choice is not what people think it is. It is the confluence of every phenomenon into this event, which is called a choice, but is ultimately determined by the absolute that created all of it.

So why practice, realize, and teach? Or not? Because you (i.e., absolute reality) choose that it be so.