Why we need religion

[UnbornTao]

Quote

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."

― Steven Weinberg

 

On 3/26/2023 at 7:17 PM, Carl-Richard said:

All I'm saying is that seeking the highest value is a fundamental need within the human organism. I'm not saying what the expression of that has to look like. But what I am saying is that it's better to fulfill that need it in a way that also supports other human needs, like safety, belonging, etc., which is why I propose to you the need for religion.

Don't know about that. Religion can be beneficial for those things that you mentioned.

 

Quote

You wouldn't go to a restaurant if they only served food but no drinks. You'll feel like you're missing something. And that is all religion truly is: spirituality without the obvious missing pieces. I don't see how discovering spirituality through some obscure YouTube video and meditating in your basement without anybody in your life knowing what the hell you are doing is just how things are meant to be.

Is your concern about consciousness or social survival?

Circumstances are secondary or irrelevant to enlightenment work. Ramana sat endlessly in a cave while insects ate away his legs. Nissargadatta was illiterate and heavily addicted to smoking. Nothing fancy, yet they're deeply conscious.

 

Quote

A spiritual guru is followed, a spiritual path is followed, a spiritual concept is taken on faith until it's experienced. And instead of getting the concepts from a culture, you get it from a cult.

Becoming a contemplator, not a follower, is what I advocate. The act of following seems to imply belief and conformity. Ideas that come from skillful individuals could be held as possibilities rather than as hearsay that demands faith. 

That's the heart of the issue: religion is about the faith aspect, and stops there. It doesn't encourage deep questioning nor personal experience. That's not what it is up to, as opposed to openly seeking out what's true which doesn't require religious belief in the first place.

Edited April 11, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Nemra]

I wasn't only talking about religious fundamentalists.

[Carl-Richard]

17 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

So your concern is not about consciousness but about social stuff and the like, or trying to fit consciousness into a model of how things should be. It turns out that environment and circumstances are secondary or irrelevant in this work. Ramana sat endlessly in some cave while insects ate away and bit his body. Nothing glamorous, and yet he's deeply conscious.

In general, do you think it's better to do spiritual practice in a room filled with exhaust and maggots eating at your eyeballs while somebody is giving you intravenous injections of PCP and alcohol, or would you prefer a more healthy environment? Sure, you can expose yourself to stressors in a controlled way as a part of your spiritual practice, but the key there is "controlled". When something is outside your control and you can't change it and it affects your health, that is not good for spiritual practice. "Social stuff" is to trivialize it. It's a social safety net, a buffer for stressors, mental health support and care, and a source of knowledge and wisdom from people who know more than you (and preferably an old tradition tested by time). This particular point is very personal to me. The lack of a social safety net around me when I first awakened is the greatest injustice I've experienced as a human.

 

17 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

What I'm advocating here is for becoming a contemplator and not a follower.

Following seems to imply belief. In terms of concepts, if they come from someone skillful that you trust, you could hold it as a possibility, not something that involves faith.

This may be the heart of the issue: Religion is all about the faith part, and it stops there. It discourages direct experience by its nature. The reason why people follow religions seems to be feeling better and special and having some prepackaged cosmology invented for them so that they don't have to deal with their not knowing. Actual questioning would reveal religion as unnecessary for becoming conscious. Open investigation isn't religion's job.

I'm also curious as to how the distinction spirituality is created in one's experience in the first place. If I'm honest with myself I see no need for referencing it. Kind of vague and abstract, makes it suitable to mischief such as fantazising. Finer distinctions grounded on experience are more real. This is why I don't usually think in terms of "spirituality".

I'll acknowledge like I did earlier that some lineages of particularly Christianity was burdened by some theological shifts around 400 BC (but again, this not endemic to religion in general). But other than that, the difference between New Age faith and Christian faith is that you'll be promised heaven on Earth instead of heaven in the afterlife, and in both cases, you have to indeed take it on faith until you're on the other side, and you have to trust some external example outside yourself as a motivator (your guru, your saint, your savior). What that looks like in practice is identical for both cases: it's the same levels of dogmatism, confusion, self-deception. The difference is that the New Ager does it mostly alone while fearing for their sanity and while probably getting exploited by some eccentric figure on the fringes of society.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Understander said:

I wasn't only talking about religious fundamentalists.

What is your definition of religious fundamentalism? The separation between the fundamentalist and modernist Christians in the 1920s in the US happened because some of the Christians started questioning some of the dogmas. According to your definition, the modernist Christians are no longer religious.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Blackhawk]

No we don't need religion, but people are free to believe what they want. You can't kill religion.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

No we don't need religion, but people are free to believe what they want. You can't kill religion.

In general,

- do we need spirituality? Yes.
- do we need friends? Yes.
- do we need support and care from our family and our local community? Yes. 
- do we need guidance from wiser and more knowledgeable people than ourselves? Yes.
- do we need ethical and legal frameworks against abuse and misconduct? Yes.
- do we need a shared basic framework of understanding, rituals and symbols? Yes (believe it or not).
- do we need institutions to keep these things in place? Yes.

Good, so why separate spirituality from all these other needs? Why put up arbitrary barriers between different fundamental human needs?

"So guys, I'm going to create my own type of spirituality. It includes not eating food, because eating food leads to all sorts of problems. Avoiding all food is true spirituality. Eating food is what religious people do."

Edited March 27, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Gesundheit2]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

All I'm saying is that seeking the highest value is a fundamental need within the human organism. I'm not saying what the expression of that has to look like. But what I am saying is that it's better to fulfill that need it in a way that also supports other human needs, like safety, belonging, etc.,

There are several ways to get your human needs met. Religion was effective in small tribes. We aren't a small tribe anymore, adapt.

We invented email so that we don't have to use the slow and outdated post office anymore. Both satisfy the same needs, but email has many advantages, like speed and live communication.

Religion is like the post office. You're trying to travel back in time. Are you feeling nostalgic?

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

In general,

- do we need spirituality? Yes.
- do we need friends? Yes.
- do we need support and care from our family and our local community? Yes. 
- do we need guidance from wiser and more knowledgeable people than ourselves? Yes.
- do we need ethical and legal frameworks against abuse and misconduct? Yes.
- do we need a shared framework of understanding, rituals and symbols? Yes (believe it or not).
- do we need institutions to keep these things in place? Yes.

Good, so why separate spirituality from all these other needs? Why put up arbitrary barriers between different fundamental human needs?

"So guys, I'm going to create my own type of spirituality. It includes not eating food, because eating food leads to all sorts of problems. Avoiding all food is true spirituality. Eating food is what religious people do."

No to all those things.

[Gesundheit2]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

In general,

- do we need spirituality? Yes.
- do we need friends? Yes.
- do we need support and care from our family and our local community? Yes. 
- do we need guidance from wiser and more knowledgeable people than ourselves? Yes.
- do we need ethical and legal frameworks against abuse and misconduct? Yes.
- do we need a shared framework of understanding, rituals and symbols? Yes (believe it or not).
- do we need institutions to keep these things in place? Yes.

Good, so why separate spirituality from all these other needs? Why put up arbitrary barriers between different fundamental human needs?

Because most people don't need these things as they actually already have most of them, and/or have learned to cope without the rest of them.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Because most people don't need these things as they actually already have most of them, and/or have learned to cope without some of them.

"have learned to cope". Brother, I'm not talking about coping here. I'm talking about thriving as a human being. I'm talking about reaching your highest potential. You can cope, but that means you're missing something. I don't care about just getting by. That is boring to talk about. It's not an ideal to strive for. Besides, the world is in a meaning crisis. People are sad and lonely. You already know all that.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Gesundheit2]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

"have learned to cope". Brother, I'm not talking about coping here. I'm talking about thriving as a human being. I'm talking about reaching your highest potential. You can cope, but that means you're missing something. I don't care about just getting by. That is boring to talk about. It's not an ideal to strive for. Besides, the world is in a meaning crisis. Mental health problems are at an all time high, people are sad and lonely; you already know all of that. And you can't deny that you want something better. That is why you came to this forum.

I know, and you're right in an ideal world. But the world is nowhere near ideal. So you can't really expect something like that to happen anytime soon. So we are left with reality. What is the most realistic way for you and me to get our needs met? Is it waiting around for the Great God to come from the sky and solve our problems? Or is it accepting the challenging reality and getting our hands dirty? It's good that you're aware of this so that you can avoid perpetuating the problem further, but I don't think there's much that we can currently do besides that on that front. There's much to be done on other fronts, though.

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I know, and you're right in an ideal world. But the world is nowhere near ideal. So you can't really expect something like that to happen anytime soon. So we are left with reality. What is the most realistic way for you and me to get our needs met? Is it waiting around for the Great God to come from the sky and solve our problems? Or is it accepting the challenging reality and getting our hands dirty? It's good that you're aware of this so that you can avoid perpetuating the problem further, but I don't think there's much that we can currently do besides that on that front. There's much to be done on other fronts, though.

We steer the ship in the right direction and pray to the weather gods.

[Gesundheit2]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

pray to the weather gods.

Infidel 

Here we only pray to Leo 

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

On 3/26/2023 at 1:54 PM, UnbornTao said:

In the context of consciousness, it's nonsense and not needed. Religion simply gets in the way.

Now you may be tempted to believe what I said. This is the essence of religion.

Again, as Gandhi said, God has no religion. Also refer to Krishnamurti's quote about truth as a pathless land. And I believe them!  

   When I asked 'What's the consensus with religion, should we lose or keep them, I was asking for the majority of people out there, because most of the time they need something to believe in, whether it's a faceless good, old man in the clouds, multiple deities or believing in a non-existing god, there seems to be a case for the majority needing deeply to believe in a grand narrative by default.

   This means, which grand narrative is much better for the people? for the monsters out there to be bewitched and distracted by for the rest of their lives?

[UnbornTao]

@Carl-Richard

First grasp what belief is. Without direct experience, you may be stuck with belief and ideas. Notice the significance of this. Don't jump to conclusions, I'm not talking from a new age standpoint. That's irrelevant. To me, you sound like you want something to believe in, which is fine, by the way. Some beliefs can be beneficial.

No culture is based on direct consciousness. They're all based on survival. Avoid fantasizing.

Whatever's absolutely true must be true now, no matter the circumstances. A supportive environment is useful, but care should be taken not to play the victim, reacting against circumstances as if they were the determinant factor. You can contemplate in many states and environments -- while stressed, lonely, bored, blissful, hungry, etc.

Edited April 2, 2023 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:36 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@UnbornTao

   When I asked 'What's the consensus with religion, should we lose or keep them, I was asking for the majority of people out there, because most of the time they need something to believe in, whether it's a faceless good, old man in the clouds, multiple deities or believing in a non-existing god, there seems to be a case for the majority needing deeply to believe in a grand narrative by default.

   This means, which grand narrative is much better for the people? for the monsters out there to be bewitched and distracted by for the rest of their lives?

I don't think they actually need to. What you mean is that they want to. Again, there might be benefits to religion, especially in the social domain. 

What do you get by believing? Even if you believed the earth was round, that still wouldn't be an experience of what's true! It's hearsay. Whether it comes from a trusted source or not is another distinction to make. When it comes to existential matters, the difference is more abysmal still. Believing is fine but at some point you've got to grow up: What are you? What is another? What is existence? What is life? What are emotions?

Edited April 2, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

31 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

BS. They don't need to. If you mean they want to, that's likely more appropriate. Why? What do you get by believing? It's nothing, nada. Oh, I believe the earth is triangular, I feel special. Even if you believed the earth is round it wouldn't still be an experience of the truth! I'd be like nothing. Apply this to existential matters and the difference is even more staggering.

Individuals could use some honesty and go directly to the fact that they don't know, and stay there. That's a much better place to be and to question. Rather than making up sandcastles to cover up or feel better about themselves, especially in a religious context which people cling to. In this regard, identifying beliefs as what they are is not what people are up to. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, fine. At some point some growing up will be needed if what you want is something that transcends belief.

   What about the Nihilism or Solipsism that may result? On the scale of millions? It's already terrifying for one person, neverminded getting millions to leave religions and stay in a collective state of not knowing.

   There's also the masses weaponizing grand narratives, like how does anyone knows which one is better?

[Carl-Richard]

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I think you don't grasp what belief is. If it isn't a personal experience, it most likely is belief! Notice the significance of this.

I will agree that the average Christian boomer is not aiming at the mystical experience in the same way as whatever you're presenting.

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

No culture is based on direct personal consciousness.

Was Buddha not a mystic? Jesus? Mohammed? Mystical experiences have shaped cultures for millennia. It's deeply tied to the origin of culture itself, certainly religion.

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Also I feel like having beliefs give the impression of being a negative by the way I'm talking about them. Wanted to clarify that they aren't -- nor are they positive by themselves. Beliefs can be empowering, freeing and healthy. It just depends in the way you hold them: either as useful tools or as unrecognized dogma.

Ok, so most "religious" people are just mindlessly following unrecognized dogma, I agree. But again, that is true for most people in general in any domain: political, social, scientific. It's not endemic to religion, and I don't see you addressing that point.

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Whatever's absolutely true must be true now. You can contemplate no matter the circumstances. A conducive environment is of course useful. However care should be taken not to adopt the victim role by reacting against circumstances. If you think you always need to be at peace in a silent, distraction-free surrounding before "getting on the cushion", you don't understand contemplation.

You can contemplate while your balls are being sawed off.

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Support and a healthy environment can be had without religious doctrine.

I'm defining religion as when spirituality is being done in a supportive and healthy environment, so that doesn't compute for me. You're free to clarify what you mean by "healthy environment". I have given extensive lists of what I mean which you can dispute or add to if you want.

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Carefully listen to the video I shared. I don't care about new age. You're stuck in those inventions and automatically assume I'm talking from that standpoint.

I'm labeling your standpoint "New Age" in the same way you're labeling my standpoint "beliefs". I can name it something else if you want. What about WEIRD spirituality?: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic spirituality. "Tradition? Uh, no thanks, I like it WEIRD!" (That's of course less accurate though).

Edited March 28, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Tanz]

@Blackhawk China removed religion when the ccp took over; it was a horrible idea because if you have been to Taiwan and China, you can see a noticeable difference between the mannerisms of Taiwanese and Chinese people.  

The Taiwanese are polite and a warmer, more outgoing version of what you can experience in Japan, while in China, people will walk right by a pedestrian that got hit by a car.  Before the communist party took over, Buddhism and Confucianism were a centralized part of their culture.  

[Wolfgang Winterkaise]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:13 PM, Carl-Richard said:

In general,

- do we need spirituality? Yes.
- do we need friends? Yes.
- do we need support and care from our family and our local community? Yes. 
- do we need guidance from wiser and more knowledgeable people than ourselves? Yes.
- do we need ethical and legal frameworks against abuse and misconduct? Yes.
- do we need a shared basic framework of understanding, rituals and symbols? Yes (believe it or not).
- do we need institutions to keep these things in place? Yes.

Good, so why separate spirituality from all these other needs? Why put up arbitrary barriers between different fundamental human needs?

I agree, well said you systems view magician you. That's beautiful. Godspeed.