Do you still suffer?

[Illusory Self]

Many people claim to be 'awake' or know everything about spirituality but the real question is do you still suffer and if so why? 

 

Do you want to get to that next awakening because of not being awake enough currently, if so why? Imo, a way of look at if someone is so called 'enlightened' or 'awake' or not is simply, does that person still suffer or not? 

 

If there is no more suffering, then great but what causes a lot of suffering imo especially in spirituality is the need to be more awake and 'higher conscious' etc.. That inevtibly causes suffering is there is a disastisfaction what what is currently present. A spiritual ego so to speak, claiming awakening but it is just uninspected thought narratives. You can make thought stories about conceptually understanding spirituality but it's actually the removal of those stories. It's easy to say, this is a dream etc... whilst it still remains yet another story that the sense of self builds. 

 

It's all to easy for the ego to claim 'that I am awake' but that is not the case. It's using awakening as a way of enhancing the seperate self in order to be more spiritually superior than others. A spiritual delusion so to speak, and it cannot be seen clearly unless one is really honest with themselves. 

 

The ego wants to identify with anything but it actually never existed in the first place. It's just thoughts, beliefs, narratives etc.. 

 

So my question to you is, do you suffer or not? and if so, why? 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Illusory Self

[OldManCorcoran]

I don't care about suffering and I don't care about spirituality. I don't understand what these things have to do with reality, it seems like a different endeavour.

[Moksha]

I agree that the proof is in the spiritual pudding. Many people claim to have transformative realizations, but if they still suffer how are these realizations different from the manipulations of the egoic mind? The journey is not only about understanding what you are not, but about directly realizing what you are, and thereby dissolving the personal attachments that cause you to suffer.

The vast majority of content on this forum is about proclaiming profound insights, rather than doing the spiritual work of surrendering to the reality of yourself. If you still suffer, you have not yet fully realized or surrendered.

When I first woke up, I went through quite a long period of time where my suffering was all but gone. I naïvely assumed that this awakened state was permanent, when in reality it was not. To the contrary, it was followed by an even darker period of suffering than I was in before I awakened. I now realize why this deeper suffering was necessary, and am grateful for what it taught me. Again, I find myself no longer suffering, but it is a deeper realization than before. It's like the first awakening was the birth of an infant that was cradled until it was ready to learn to walk. Love set me on my own feet, and I felt utterly abandoned until I finally found my way to the other side.

Is the suffering permanently gone? I suppose it again depends on how well I have learned its lessons.

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

When I first woke up, I went through quite a long period of time where my suffering was all but gone. I naïvely assumed that this awakened state was permanent, when in reality it was not. To the contrary, it was followed by an even darker period of suffering than I was in before I awakened. I now realize why this deeper suffering was necessary, and am grateful for what it taught me.

I’m at this stage right now. 

Why is this deeper suffering necessary? Love? I find myself connecting to others who seem to also suffering. 
 

Edit: Thank you @Moksha for this reply from another thread. It answers my above question:

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Yimpa

[Moksha]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I’m at this stage right now. 

Why is this deeper suffering necessary? Love? I find myself connecting to others who seem to also suffering. 

Suffering is necessary to drive home the lesson that manipulating reality to suit your desires and assuage your fears is absolutely futile. We make ourselves miserable by insisting that the cosmos should cater to our needs. Nothing that is transient can give you enduring happiness and peace. Only the timeless within can realize the timeless. To free yourself from suffering, you have to learn to live in the flow state of yourself, without resistance to reality.

Fighting with your mind is not the answer. Resistance only makes the mind stronger. All you need is to realize that you are not your mind, and that will create the space for you to realize what you actually are. The attachments of the mind begin to dissolve, and it settles into an effortless orbit like the moon around the earth. It is still part of the system, but chaos is replaced by harmony.

[Alex_R]

Since i did spiritually work and trip on high doses of psychedelics my Neurosis dissapeared by about 60 or 70%

 

I think the trick was just learn what is God and learn to trust in God, which is also myself.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Alex_R

[Gesundheit2]

Mostly not. I'm generally very happy with my life.

To sum it up nicely, I couldn't be happier, but somehow I just am.

[Blackbeat]

I got recommended this so yes, hedonism ain't working out that well ngl, but then again I'm low on funds too so ye. But to be fair I could do more meditation exercise etc etc.

[Leo Gura]

How conscious you are has nothing to do with how you feel. You can feel good and not be very conscious. You can be very conscious and not feel good. Be careful conflating these two.

If you try to link these two variables in your mind, you will get into trouble. Reduce your suffering if you wish. But do not fool yourself that that means you understand anything about the ultimate nature of Consciousness. A long ass strong determination sit is NOT the same thing as deep consciousness! You can light yourself on fire with gasoline, but that is not the same thing as Consciousness!

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

Suffering is the doorway to liberation.   That's the way of the Four Noble Truths.  

[Gesundheit2]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How conscious you are has nothing to do with how you feel. You can feel good and not be very conscious. You can be very conscious and not feel good. Be careful conflating these two.

If you try to link these two variables in your mind, you will get into trouble. Reduce your suffering if you wish. But do not fool yourself that that means you understand anything about the ultimate nature of Consciousness. A long ass strong determination sit is NOT the same thing as deep consciousness! You can light yourself on fire with gasoline, but that is not the same thing as Consciousness!

Obviously not suffering is not automatically high consciousness. But in my experience, suffering does reduce your ability to be conscious. It takes away from your focus and ability to get deep in the moment, so it kind of literally deletes consciousness. There certainly is a link there, but I'm not entirely sure of what it is yet.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

suffering does reduce your ability to be conscious. It takes away from your focus

Yes. It's a distraction. Which is why you gotta be careful with it.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Moksha]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How conscious you are has nothing to do with how you feel. You can feel good and not be very conscious. You can be very conscious and not feel good. Be careful conflating these two.

This is true, but also be careful not to conflate how you feel with suffering. You can be in deep physical or emotional pain, from what is happening in this moment, without suffering, which is the result of resisting the reality of this moment.

If you are in the flow state of yourself, and allow the energy of everything you encounter to freely pass through you, you will never suffer again.

When I suffered, it was always the result of focusing my attention on my mind and being caught up in its turmoil. I would invest enormous energy into the thought/feeling of an event that happened in the past, or the thought/feeling of an event that might happen in the future, neither of which had anything to do with the reality of now. My mind was doing its best to protect me from being hurt or from hurting others, without realizing that in doing so it was actually creating the suffering that it so desperately wanted to avoid.

The energy of life has to go somewhere. It can pass through you, and teach you in the process without harming you, or its coming and going can be resisted. If you barricade yourself against negative energy, or cling to positive energy, either way you are trapping it inside of you. Until you surrender to it and release it, the energy will build into an internal hurricane of suffering.

Enlightenment is the realization of your ultimate nature, and remaining within the stillness of your essence no matter what winds the life dream sends your way. You still feel the winds, but instead of fighting them you surrender to them. I love the example of the Zen master who received the news that his wife had suddenly died, and collapsed in tears and wailing. His awareness was still present, observing the energy of this event passing through the person without resisting it. It was an authentic experience, which he neither clung to nor resisted. That is what it means to live lucidly.

[Illusory Self]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

This is true, but also be careful not to conflate how you feel with suffering. You can be in deep physical or emotional pain, from what is happening in this moment, without suffering, which is the result of resisting the reality of this moment.

If you are in the flow state of yourself, and allow the energy of everything you encounter to freely pass through you, you will never suffer again.

When I suffered, it was always the result of focusing my attention on my mind and being caught up in its turmoil. I would invest enormous energy into the thought/feeling of an event that happened in the past, or the thought/feeling of an event that might happen in the future, neither of which had anything to do with the reality of now. My mind was doing its best to protect me from being hurt or from hurting others, without realizing that in doing so it was actually creating the suffering that it so desperately wanted to avoid.

The energy of life has to go somewhere. It can pass through you, and teach you in the process without harming you, or its coming and going can be resisted. If you barricade yourself against negative energy, or cling to positive energy, either way you are trapping it inside of you. Until you surrender to it and release it, the energy will build into an internal hurricane of suffering.

Enlightenment is the realization of your ultimate nature, and remaining within the stillness of your essence no matter what winds the life dream sends your way. You still feel the winds, but instead of fighting them you surrender to them. I love the example of the Zen master who received the news that his wife had suddenly died, and collapsed in tears and wailing. His awareness was still present, observing the energy of this event passing through the person without resisting it. It was an authentic experience, which he neither clung to nor resisted. That is what it means to live lucidly.

 

@Moksha

Yes I relate to you, I spent most of my life in deep mental suffering but it gave me what I needed to not suffer anymore. To accept everything, just how it is. 

Suffering is simply a disastisfaction with what is right here and now. 

[Boost]

Suffering is when there is no enough life force which would feed you organs, in other words your chakras are blocked due to fears to feel or acknowledge things.

[gettoefl]

suffering is misidentification ... i realize if you suffer i suffer since you are just as much i as me is

the absolute is fine with suffering taking place but pursues through me a program of suffering minimization as far as practicable 

the absolute is at work to reduce my and your suffering

i wakes up, me and you should suffer less but it might take time

Edited March 24, 2023 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

the stories of life make me suffer quite light , two years ago i was suffering , now it's easy to silent the mind and be in the present moment without needs. But i suffer for being finite, limited. Not real suffering but kind of frustration. I need to really get out of myself , but it isn't easy 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How conscious you are has nothing to do with how you feel

Really? I'd say higher conciousness, better feeling 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Really? I'd say higher conciousness, better feeling 

Only in a loose way.

[Moksha]

@Illusory Self It's funny how life becomes kinder when you decide to stop scolding it. Almost like a mirror