Is there a difference between time and change?

[davecraw]

Currently I conceive of change as involving two different things that exist one after the other. So a change occurs if one thing exists and then a different thing exists. 

Is this a good way to conceive of change? If not, why?

What then is time? And what exactly is the difference between these conceptions (if there is any)?

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by davecraw

[Carl-Richard]

Time is an abstraction of the perception of change, just like space is an abstraction of the perception of objects. An abstraction is like a placeholder for concrete things.

For example, you can perceive a concrete object, like an ice cube, change its shape in room temperature and then turn to liquid. We say that the ice cube exists "in space" and changes "over time". And this applies to all objects at all times: wherever an object may exist, we call that space, and whatever may happen to that object, we refer to that by time. Hence space and time are placeholders for all objects, all things, i.e. very fundamental categories or classifications of perception; so fundamental in fact, that people often forget that they're just that — classifications, abstractions.

It's not that space and time are concrete entities that "exist". They're just placeholders that we use to help us make sense of concrete entities.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Osaid]

Time is not equal to change.

Time measures change. It's a unit of measurement. Like how you use a ruler to measure length, but the measurement of length is not the actual perception of length itself.

Change itself is not a conception, it is a qualia or experience, which is then put into a model or context such as time, which is conception.

If you are trapped in a room without any clocks or devices to accurately measure time, your perception of time will literally change and become warped, because the task of measuring time will be left to your imagination which is much more fluid and flexible.

The nature of reality is that it is always changing and not changing simultaneously. It's an imagined duality.

 

[Moksha]

57 minutes ago, davecraw said:

what exactly is the difference between these conceptions (if there is any)?

What exactly is the difference between pulling a rabbit out of a hat and sawing a woman in half?

[davecraw]

@Osaid

"The nature of reality is that it is always changing and not changing simultaneously. It's an imagined duality."

That's like saying a light switch is on and off simultaneosuly. Can you elaborate because that doesn't make any sense to me. What is an imagined duality? 

Edited March 23, 2023 by davecraw

[davecraw]

16 minutes ago, Moksha said:

What exactly is the difference between pulling a rabbit out of a hat and sawing a woman in half?

Lol what exactly is your point?

[Leo Gura]

You see your visual field changing all the time. Now just remove time from that. Allow it to change but within Eternity rather than time. Just strip time from your experience. Pretend like you grew up but never learned what time was.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Leo Gura

[axiom]

@davecraw

The past is a memory which happens now. The future is imagination, which also only happens now.

There is only now. It is always now.

Where is time in this picture?

Edited March 23, 2023 by axiom

[r0ckyreed]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You see your visual field changing all the time. Now just remove time from that. Allow it to change but within Eternity rather than time. Just strip time from your experience. Pretend like you grew up but never learned what time was.

But Leo … Isn’t change also imaginary? According to Parmenides, change and non-existence cannot exist. To him, Truth and Reality/Existence are unchanging. Change assumes cause and effect, which is also an illusion right? Our senses deceive us into thinking change exists in the same way they trick us into thinking reality exists? A dream is a self-deception and yet change appears to occur in our dreams, but when we wake up, it is as if nothing ever occurred.

Our senses deceive us all the time, so it is important to challenge them and not take the appearance of change as reality for granted.

But then again, to play God’s advocate, if change does not exist, then everything we can ever know about life will be wrong because we have appearances that are not in alignment with the nature of reality. To deny change is to deny what is Absolutely the case now, which is all that we can be certain of as existing. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Osaid]

8 hours ago, davecraw said:

Currently I conceive of change as involving two different things that exist one after the other. So a change occurs if one thing exists and then a different thing exists.

6 hours ago, davecraw said:

That's like saying a light switch is on and off simultaneosuly. Can you elaborate because that doesn't make any sense to me. What is an imagined duality? 

Well, you said it yourself. Change involves two things that exist one after the other. Those two things are the duality. The "lack of change" needs to exist alongside the "change" in order for you to perceive it. Just like you can't have light without dark, or up without down. Change is just appearances filling in a lack of appearance. But, both aspects have to exist together since they only exist relative to each other, and so they always ultimately exist as one thing.

For example, when you add red food coloring to a glass of water, you say that the water changed. But, if you add red food coloring to a glass of water that already has red food coloring in it, you say nothing changed, because it was already red to begin with. You need the initial "lack of red" to perceive the "change to red", and so ultimately the "lack of change" is actually identical to the "change", your mind just imagines a separation between the two for practical reasons, and so that would be the "imagined duality".





 

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, davecraw said:

Lol what exactly is your point?

I gave you two examples of illusions. Does it matter how each magic trick is performed if neither represents reality?

There is no absolute time or change, only relative time and change within the cosmos. Both are magic tricks of the mind.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

But Leo … Isn’t change also imaginary?

It is less imaginary than time.

Quote

According to Parmenides, change and non-existence cannot exist.

Stop listening to humans. Look at your direct experience. You see change right now.

Quote

Our senses deceive us all the time, so it is important to challenge them and not take the appearance of change as reality for granted.

Your experience is Absolute Truth. Just look at it closely and stop projecting crap on top of it.

The change you are presently seeing is True. It is not a deception. The deception is when you think that senses are deceiving you. Senses are not deceiving you, thinking is deceiving you.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Leo Gura

[tuku747]

8 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

But Leo … Isn’t change also imaginary? According to Parmenides, change and non-existence cannot exist. To him, Truth and Reality/Existence are unchanging. Change assumes cause and effect, which is also an illusion right? Our senses deceive us into thinking change exists in the same way they trick us into thinking reality exists? A dream is a self-deception and yet change appears to occur in our dreams, but when we wake up, it is as if nothing ever occurred.

Our senses deceive us all the time, so it is important to challenge them and not take the appearance of change as reality for granted.

But then again, to play God’s advocate, if change does not exist, then everything we can ever know about life will be wrong because we have appearances that are not in alignment with the nature of reality. To deny change is to deny what is Absolutely the case now, which is all that we can be certain of as existing. 

I feel the only thing to do here is to collapse the duality between change and the unchanging.

We Are Change-less Change.

We Are Unchanging Change.

We Just Are.

Edited March 23, 2023 by tuku747

[How to be wise]

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is less imaginary than time.

Of course change is imaginary. Change only happens in the mind. 

The mind is the creator of illusions. Don’t trust anything it says!

[billiesimon]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It is less imaginary than time.

The change you are presently seeing is True. It is not a deception. The deception is when you think that senses are deceiving you. Senses are not deceiving you, thinking is deceiving you.

You stated in the past that "perceptions" are truth but also divine imagination at the same time.

This might mean that there are layers of imagination. For example human monkey mind is probably the most superficial level, while present moment perceptions are the deepest level.

So, what happens if God stops all layers of imagination? Is that what you call the Godhead?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

You stated in the past that "perceptions" are truth but also divine imagination at the same time.

Correct.

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

This might mean that there are layers of imagination. For example human monkey mind is probably the most superficial level, while present moment perceptions are the deepest level.

Of course.

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

So, what happens if God stops all layers of imagination? Is that what you call the Godhead?

That would be the classic Buddhist Emptiness/Nothingness.

[Devin]

 

11 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

 

But then again, to play God’s advocate, if change does not exist, then everything we can ever know about life will be wrong because we have appearances that are not in alignment with the nature of reality. To deny change is to deny what is Absolutely the case now, which is all that we can be certain of as existing. 

        Always, everything exists, every different option, variation, scenario,.... infinity exists always, infinity doesn't just mean anything can happen, infinity means it is. You're not experiencing just this qualia right here right now and other qualia next, different qualia before this, that's time.

      "everything we know about life will be wrong" every option, variation, scenario, .... about 'life' isn't just possible, it's true.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Devin

[tuku747]

19 hours ago, davecraw said:

@Osaid

"The nature of reality is that it is always changing and not changing simultaneously. It's an imagined duality."

That's like saying a light switch is on and off simultaneosuly. Can you elaborate because that doesn't make any sense to me. What is an imagined duality? 

Reality changes. This much is obvious.

What doesn't change is that Reality Exists.

Reality is still the same Reality it was 5 seconds ago, even though it's also changing.

Otherwise there would be no continuity.

Time. The Space/Time Continuum.

You Are Change. You Are Reality.

The "I Am" is Eternal.

You Are.

Edited March 23, 2023 by tuku747

[billiesimon]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That would be the classic Buddhist Emptiness/Nothingness.

Ah. And why isn't that the deepest awakening?

I mean, what happens in the highest states of God realization? Does perception stop?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

Ah. And why isn't that the deepest awakening?

Because God-Realization is a high level holsitic compression. It is not a reduction of Consciousness into a null state. Rather than moving downward you move upward.

Quote

I mean, what happens in the highest states of God realization? Does perception stop?

No, perception doesn't stop. You could say it gets super-charged and mystified.

Your perception become Divine and supernatural. But that isn't the main point. The main point is that you become conscious of how you are imagining reality all around yourself.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Leo Gura