On killing animals for meat and other products

[caspex]

I still haven't experience any difference between going vegan or not, even though I have tried em both. Honestly, I am thinking of quitting meat eating simply because every time I go to the butcher's to buy the chicken, they kill a chicken in front of me to replace the one they just gave me. To see them all packed together just sitting, waiting for the inevitable. Even though the ones I get are treated better than the factory grown chicken, it's starting to affect me. Like initially I thought I could raise my own chickens for meat when I get older, but how conscious am I if I am doing something to another living being that I wouldn't wanna be done to me if I was that living being. If I was a plant I wouldn't mind getting my fruits taken or be uprooted to be eaten cuz I wouldn't be feeling pain and stuff. But if I was a chicken, I am pretty sure I'd be shaking in face of my death. I mean to inflict/cause that kind of suffering and pain all for selfish reasons, it's so hard to accept when you are actually aware of what you are doing. You know when Jesus was on the cross, even in great pain he asked for forgiveness from God for the people who crucified him and wanting to kill him? That's the kind of acceptance you need, to consciously decide whether you wanna kill something else to eat it. And when you achieve that super human feat of accepting and transcending physical pain, terror and torture, how heartless must you be to inflict that same thing on another living being? That'd be another super human feat in itself, because at that point, every time you kill something that can suffer the pain and terror of death, you're killing yourself. Imagine how fucking awake you'd need to be to not get traumatized from that. Like I honestly feel this is why the more conscious people get the more they respect other being's will and life.

[Someone here]

You are overthinking this a lot. 

Every living being will die inevitably eventually. 

I would go vegan because it is healthy not because of this reason. 

[caspex]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

You are overthinking this a lot. 

Every living being will die inevitably eventually. 

I would go vegan because it is healthy not because of this reason. 

I am not overthinking it because my goal isn't to become vegan. I simply just posted a line of thought regarding the title.

[Hojo]

@Swarnim its not about wanting or not its about acceptance. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off? Can you accept that you caused one to get their head cut off? Their head was already cut off before you bought it the process just happened when you got there and you took blame for it.

Or you can look at it as nothing outside your perception exists you are dreaming and you went into the shop and got a dead chicken which was never alive as dead chicken is not alive chicken. The one they killed is for the next person not you and you were never served an alive chicken that chicken was always dead. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off now? You are identifying as an animal killer but thats not true in your experience. Even if you have killed an animal you have probably forgiven yourself. You just like to eat chicken.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Hojo

[caspex]

1 hour ago, Hojo said:

@Swarnim its not about wanting or not its about acceptance. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off? Can you accept that you caused one to get their head cut off? Their head was already cut off before you bought it the process just happened when you got there and you took blame for it.

Or you can look at it as nothing outside your perception exists you are dreaming and you went into the shop and got a dead chicken which was never alive as dead chicken is not alive chicken. The one they killed is for the next person not you and you were never served an alive chicken that chicken was always dead. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off now? You are identifying as an animal killer but thats not true in your experience. Even if you have killed an animal you have probably forgiven yourself. You just like to eat chicken.

@Hojo Their head was already cut off because there is demand for them. If I am buying from their shop, it says that hey, there's demand so let's kill more! Obviously it's not just my fault as an individual, but that was never my point. The way I'll 'accept' that chicken get their heads cut off is by not empathizing with them, and making it some fact in my head that "chickens get their heads cut off". I mean that's how most go about it. But can you really call that the most conscious way of going about it? Let me be clear I am not guilting myself because I like to eat chicken.

If you just apply the "it's all a dream and there's only the here and now" understanding it's so devoid of love. You can apply that and easily justify killing another person for let's say their money. I mean it's all a dream and that person is only a figment of my imagination, I need some money, another figment of my imagination, so why don't I just go kill him if I can get away with it? You're just ignoring the substance of existence at that point which is love. To love would mean that yeah it's all an imagination, but so is 'their free will', that you will imagine within your own, because you give them enough sovereignty(out of love) to have their own authority like you do. And once you let them have that out of love, you empathize with them and actually not kill them for money because you would honor their wishes of wanting to live, and keep their money. Just do the same with a chicken. And this is what God does with 'You'.

The point of my whole post isn't to argue whether killing animals for meat is good or bad. My point is how a highly conscious person would go about it, if at all. My thinking is that they'd be too loving to do it, because killing the animal would be like killing yourself. And unless you can accept and transcend that kind of pain and suffering, you wouldn't be able to kill, without limiting your love and empathy.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Swarnim

[Devin]

You're not killing yourself by killing the chicken, you're everything not just the chicken, let alone the chickens life. If you build a sandcastle and destroy it are you killing yourself being that the sandcastle is you?

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Swarnim said:

I still haven't experience any difference between going vegan or not, even though I have tried em both. Honestly, I am thinking of quitting meat eating simply because every time I go to the butcher's to buy the chicken, they kill a chicken in front of me to replace the one they just gave me. To see them all packed together just sitting, waiting for the inevitable. Even though the ones I get are treated better than the factory grown chicken, it's starting to affect me. Like initially I thought I could raise my own chickens for meat when I get older, but how conscious am I if I am doing something to another living being that I wouldn't wanna be done to me if I was that living being. If I was a plant I wouldn't mind getting my fruits taken or be uprooted to be eaten cuz I wouldn't be feeling pain and stuff. But if I was a chicken, I am pretty sure I'd be shaking in face of my death. I mean to inflict/cause that kind of suffering and pain all for selfish reasons, it's so hard to accept when you are actually aware of what you are doing. You know when Jesus was on the cross, even in great pain he asked for forgiveness from God for the people who crucified him and wanting to kill him? That's the kind of acceptance you need, to consciously decide whether you wanna kill something else to eat it. And when you achieve that super human feat of accepting and transcending physical pain, terror and torture, how heartless must you be to inflict that same thing on another living being? That'd be another super human feat in itself, because at that point, every time you kill something that can suffer the pain and terror of death, you're killing yourself. Imagine how fucking awake you'd need to be to not get traumatized from that. Like I honestly feel this is why the more conscious people get the more they respect other being's will and life.

You are completely correct.

And yet, this is exactly how brutal life is for most organisms on this planet.

Yes, you are contributing to that by eating animals. What you do about it is up to you.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nathan]

If you're to truely understand what it really means to deprive someone else of life, to make that decision for them..you have to honestly grapple with the fact you're going to die too. Our shared mortality is one of the strongest factors that unites us, but nobody likes to think about death and we lose a lot of empathy as a result of that aversion.

[LSD-Rumi]

We can easily change this just by adopting new and healthier ways of farming and killing animals, meat may become more expensive but animal welfare will greatly increase.

I will go vegetarian in the future, and access other animal products from local sources.

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

You are overthinking this a lot. 

Every living being will die inevitably eventually. 

I would go vegan because it is healthy not because of this reason. 

 

9 hours ago, Hojo said:

@Swarnim its not about wanting or not its about acceptance. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off? Can you accept that you caused one to get their head cut off? Their head was already cut off before you bought it the process just happened when you got there and you took blame for it.

Or you can look at it as nothing outside your perception exists you are dreaming and you went into the shop and got a dead chicken which was never alive as dead chicken is not alive chicken. The one they killed is for the next person not you and you were never served an alive chicken that chicken was always dead. Can you accept that chickens get their heads cut off now? You are identifying as an animal killer but thats not true in your experience. Even if you have killed an animal you have probably forgiven yourself. You just like to eat chicken.

Yes, The same can be applied to killing people, or having slaves. in fact, it has been a very common practice.

I personally don't like killing animals. I used to fish because it seemed hypocritical not to do it since I ate fish and had the fish nearby, but I found it very unpleasant. with rod, sad, half an hour fighting with the fish that you have deceived with a bait to finally kill it. With a harpoon it seemed fairer to me, but even so, always sad. So stop eating fish. meat only sometimes, if I meet people in a restaurant. for your daily life you do not need meat, with whey protein and eggs, and vegetables you have everything you need. You can buy the protein and eggs organic from animals raised in semi-freedom. It's more expensive, but that's how it should be.

[Vasu Jaggi]

"suffering" comes into the picture when we forget  that all seperation is illusion. 

[An young being]

Humans can survive and be healthy without eating meat. So, it is not a need. You took time to think how you are affecting other living beings' happiness and that itself is a good thing. If you love meat so much, you can reduce the frequency of eating meat. Then, when you realise you no longer need meat to be happy, you can entirely leave it. Or just wait for 10 more years and vegan meat will be available all around us. Then, everyone can enjoy meat without feeling guilty.

Edited March 22, 2023 by An young being

[Devin]

11 minutes ago, An young being said:

 Then, everyone can enjoy meat without feeling guilty.

What about killing plants?

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Devin said:

What about killing plants?

The more serious concern is farming and producing vegan food and just living life, still results in the death of many animals.

How many animals are killed to bulldoze a field to grow carrots? And how many are killed by all the chemicals we use? Human life in general is very destructive to animals on this planet. That is a truth that must be confronted.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

Even if you become a vegan for the rest of your life, the number of animals killed won’t change. 

[TheAlchemist]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

What about killing plants?

The animals are fed with plants so with meat eating there is a kind of double kill. Plant --> Animal --> Human vs. Plant --> Human. The plant is just filtered through the animal which transforms the plant into something else (meat). 

Also, there's an intuitive sense with most people that there is a difference between killing a plant and killing an animal, which we can highlight with an oversimplified thought experiment. Imagine you have a big bonfire, and you have three life forms. A plant, a jellyfish and a mouse. Which would you rather throw in the fire if you were forced to? For most people the plant would be easiest, the jellyfish maybe the second easiest and the mouse the hardest. 

Some might say that it is just bias to prefer one over the other, and that in the grand scheme of things they are all parts of the "illusion" so it doesn't matter. They may be right, but if one wants to live according to that principle in the relative domain, then there is no reason to preserve a human life either over any other life forms.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by TheAlchemist

[Devin]

Just now, TheAlchemist said:

The animals are fed with plants so with meat eating there is a kind of double kill. Plant --> Animal --> Human vs. Plant --> Human. The plant is just filtered through the animal which transforms the plant into something else (meat).

Also, there's an intuitive sense with most people that there is a difference between killing a plant and killing an animal, which we can highlight with a thought experiment. Imagine you have a big bonfire, and you have three things. A plant, a jellyfish and a mouse. Which would you rather throw in the fire if you were forced to? For most people the plant would be easiest, the jellyfish maybe the second easiest and the mouse the hardest. 

Some might say that it is just bias to prefer one over the other, and that in the grand scheme of things they are all parts of the "illusion" so it doesn't matter. They may be right, but if one wants to live according to that insight, then there is no reason to preserve a human life either over any other life forms.

 

      Right, I was speaking to the OPs context of "how a highly conscious person would go about it, if at all." They would just appreciate the chicken, like the OP asked "Like I honestly feel this is why the more conscious people get the more they respect other being's will and life." You can respect it and still kill it and eat it.

[LSD-Rumi]

23 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Even if you become a vegan for the rest of your life, the number of animals killed won’t change. 

It is not about killing animals, it is more about the kind of life they lived before death. All organisms die eventually but the type of life they lived is what's important.

[An young being]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

What about killing plants?

Plants don't feel pain and has no emotions it can experience

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, An young being said:

Plants don't feel pain and has no emotions it can experience

Are you speaking in the context of "highly conscious person"? If so, what is pain and why is it bad, secondly they feel no pain when you chop their heads off with a clever.