Warrants for Putin

[Blackhawk]

3 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Blackhawk

Is it russian propaganda to say that Cuba has no right to form alliances with Russia and China?

Can Mexico allow Russian bases on its territory?

Legally under international law they totally have the right to do so.

 but guess what? It is never going to happen.

Same with Ukraine, it will never be part of nato (nor the eu at this point).

Russia would never allow it, no matter the cost. Even if their last resort was to completely and totally destroy Ukraine, they would be willing to do that.

For 20 years they stated clearly, it is an existential threat to the russian state. And for good reason.

No matter what you call "propaganda", this is how things work. You don't violate people's red lines and then cry about democracy (which never existed in the first place in Ukraine)

Just be aware that you are a useful fool for the bad side.

[Devin]

3 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Blackhawk

Is it russian propaganda to say that Cuba has no right to form alliances with Russia and China?

Can Mexico allow Russian bases on its territory?

Legally under international law they totally have the right to do so.

 but guess what? It is never going to happen.

Same with Ukraine, it will never be part of nato (nor the eu at this point).

Russia would never allow it, no matter the cost. Even if their last resort was to completely and totally destroy Ukraine, they would be willing to do that.

For 20 years they stated clearly, it is an existential threat to the russian state. And for good reason.

No matter what you call "propaganda", this is how things work. You don't violate people's red lines and then cry about democracy (which never existed in the first place in Ukraine)

 

 

 

      They have a right to, and it wouldn't be a threat to the U.S. nor any benefit to Russia or China.

      Do you think the west poses an offensive military threat to Russia or China?

[Guest Tobia]

2 hours ago, Devin said:

      They have a right to, and it wouldn't be a threat to the U.S. nor any benefit to Russia or China.

      Do you think the west poses an offensive military threat to Russia or China?

@Devin we must be living on different planets.

US senators have been talking about containing Russia for decades, now openly talking about regime change. 

Even the harshest Putin critics in Russia admit that Ukraine in nato is a red line.

"Defensive" systems would be put in Ukraine that can quickly be turned into ballistic missile launchers that would reach Moscow in 5 minutes.

Ukraine is also an unstable state with prevalent far right militias. Russia absolutely needs to retain the possibility of intervening there in case chaos and instability spreads just accross their border. (As was happening in Donbass since 2014).

Ukraine joining nato would take away Russia's possibility to intervene in their neighbourhood.

 

[Guest Tobia]

@Blackhawk

2 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Just be aware that you are a useful fool for the bad side.

"Bad side" guy, from 2014 to 2022 how many times have you taken the time to understand what was going on in eastern Ukraine?

Never, now you sitting here spitting out childish good vs evil nonsense

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, Tobia said:

@Devin we must be living on different planets.

US senators have been talking about containing Russia for decades, now openly talking about regime change. 

Even the harshest Putin critics in Russia admit that Ukraine in nato is a red line.

"Defensive" systems would be put in Ukraine that can quickly be turned into ballistic missile launchers that would reach Moscow in 5 minutes.

Ukraine is also an unstable state with prevalent far right militias. Russia absolutely needs to retain the possibility of intervening there in case chaos and instability spreads just accross their border. (As was happening in Donbass since 2014).

Ukraine joining nato would take away Russia's possibility to intervene in their neighbourhood.

 

Current military capabilities completely dismiss any need for initial proximity, you're still in the previous century.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Devin

[Guest Tobia]

@Devin unlike you, russians have a particular historical memory and sensitivity to this issue. 

Failure to see it or deliberate attempt to ignore it results in war. Completely avoidable war

[Tanz]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They certainly are. I just hope the cost is not too high for them.

 

16 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I think Ukrainians take full responsibility for manifesting their sovereign will to be with Europe, they are fighting it for it and they are even winning. 

The number of weapons they will have on the streets post-war and the devastation to their infrastructure will take them decades to build back. 
The best thing that can happen to the local people is they become part of NATO and then part of the EU so that the young people can get out of their countries and work in western Europe.  If that does happen, many of the local people of countries like Italy, Germany, France, and any other country in the EU will be upset when Ukrainians take their jobs away.  
If Ukraine doesn't become part of the EU, there isn't any way they can rebuild their country on their own; this is why Zelensky wants America to send their soldiers to fight so badly to improve the odds of aid to build their country back.  Europe can hardly hold up countries like Greece and the inclusion of a new country will cause more tension socially.  If these things don't happen, it's almost better to let Russia win because Ukraine will become an unstable country run by gangsters/warlords like Iraq and Afghanistan.  Tactically there hasn't been a country since South Korea that the allies successfully rebuilt.  Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan were all failures for those countries where the battlefield was located in. I don't think the world really knows how screwed Ukraine is in every scenario that can happen.  

[Devin]

17 minutes ago, Tobia said:

@Devin unlike you, russians have a particular historical memory and sensitivity to this issue. 

Failure to see it or deliberate attempt to ignore it results in war. Completely avoidable war

Yes, even Russia has to learn the hard way sometimes like by losing in Ukraine.

[Guest Tobia]

@Devin

7 minutes ago, Devin said:

 losing in Ukraine.

there is no chance in hell russia will lose. They cannot lose, whatever the cost

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

29 minutes ago, Tobia said:

@Devin

there is no chance in hell russia will lose. They cannot lose, whatever the cost

   This is true to some extent, because if they do it's nukes that'll start flying. Ukraine will sooner or later lose the war, as the infrastructural damage Russia did to Ukraine isn't going to be easy to recover. Some kind of peace will have to be worked out, but Crimea is especially the one that Russia will escalate to keep.

[Guest Tobia]

@Danioover9000

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Tobia

  if they do it's nukes that'll start flying. 

Russia will never use nuclear weapons, unless the US intervenes directly, in which case... good luck to us all

There won't be a need for nuclear weapons as time is totally on Russia's side.

Ukraine does not have the manpower nor the artillery to go on for many more months, let alone years. Russia does.

Even american media is now starting to admit that, as time time goes on, Ukraine will be in big trouble

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

4 minutes ago, Tobia said:

@Danioover9000

Russia will never use nuclear weapons, unless the US intervenes directly, in which case... good luck to us all

There won't be a need for nuclear weapons as time is totally on Russia's side.

Ukraine does not have the manpower nor the artillery to go on for many more months, let alone years. Russia does.

Even american media is now starting to admit that, as time time goes on, Ukraine will be in big trouble

   Tactical nukes?

[Guest Tobia]

@Danioover9000

13 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Tobia

   Tactical nukes?

Besides having little to no value militarily, it would destroy Russia's friendly relations with China.

China has made it very clear, use of nuclear weapons of any kind is unacceptable for them

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

2 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Danioover9000

Besides having little to no value militarily, it would destroy Russia's friendly relations with China.

China has made it very clear, use of nuclear weapons of any kind is unacceptable for them

   What military and strategic value do tactical nukes really have? Compared to strategic nukes, they're much weaker and more local in AoE, wouldn't that give them great military value?

 

[Guest Tobia]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Tobia

   What military and strategic value do tactical nukes really have? Compared to strategic nukes, they're much weaker and more local in AoE, wouldn't that give them great military value?

 

Tactical nuclear weapons (small nukes) have never been used in combat. They were built to be used on the battlefield  to destroy specific targets with devastating force.

However, a state like Russia (unlike North Korea) has plenty of alternative weapons which are equally effective.

Some of the most powerful conventional non-nuclear bombs and missiles have begun to be used only now in recent weeks by Russia.  Their ability to escalate conventionally is far from over, and nukes are unnecessary

 

[Israfil]

On 21/03/2023 at 9:29 PM, Blackhawk said:

 

Just because that's what Russian propaganda is saying, doesn't mean that it's true.

 

On 22/03/2023 at 10:16 AM, Blackhawk said:

Just be aware that you are a useful fool for the bad side.

 

You're a living testimony of the american paradox of only studying american history, but not knowing american history. Your country is the one that intervenes the most in the world. The United States has stifled the economy and politics of many countries and has been doing so for over a hundred years. I don't think Putin is an angel, but there is a good reason for China and Russia to protect themselves from the USA's influence.

Just because there is communist propaganda, don't fall into the trap of assuming that there isn't capitalist propaganda. Educate yourself more deeply, especially in matters your country doesn't like divulging. Here is a small summary of the kind of things I'm talking about:

 

 

[lapis]

- During Obama’s last year in office, the United States dropped 26,172 bombs in seven countries. 

- Well, you don't know how many people those bombs may have saved!

- Russia invaded Ukraine.

- That's wrong!

[Leo Gura]

Dropping bombs tactically is very different from launching an invasion with aims to grab land.

Say what you will about all the US military manipulations abroad, the US never grabs land. Putin is at a whole higher league of assholery. Imagine taking land away from people who live there.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Joel3102]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Dropping bombs tactically is very different from launching an invasion with aims to grab land.

Say what you will about all the US military manipulations abroad, the US never grabs land. Putin is at a whole higher league of assholery. Imagine taking land away from people who live there.

True, the US doesn’t do that. Although they support Israel who has been doing that for 80 years 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

Although they support Israel who has been doing that for 80 years

Even that is very different from what Putin is doing.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Leo Gura