Warrants for Putin

[Jwayne]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a very charitable characterization of Chinese authoritarianism.

There is something universal to Consciousness and human psychic development. Or if not universal, at the very least human.

We're not dealing with xenomorphs here. We're dealing with fellow humans. Morality is not purely relative within humans, there is a shared genetic basis. Do not pretend like tribes of humans are all aliens to each other.

It's not messianic thinking, it's Consciousness and Love.

But more to practically, to your level of comprehension, there is such a thing a cognitive, moral, and spiritual development. And China and Russia are both "objectively" less developed on average than America. Not everything is a relative as you claim. As I said above, if you want one simple objective metric of a country's development just look at the corruption index and LGBTQ rights:

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index

You can try to weasel your way out of this by appeals to relativity, but don't kid yourself.

Your reference point for an absolute claim to morality has shifted to "LGBTQ rights" and "Transparency.org" reports. This is not a philosophical argument but empty talking points. It's arbitrary until you defend what about those specific metrics matter.

Imagine someone saying absolute morality depends on Xinhua News reports and Mandarin-fluency.  It would be equally ridiculous as what you've said.

As for Chinese economic progress, it is a measurable objective fact to put food on people's tables (erasing centuries of famine) and thus to give more opportunities to discover and explore individual potential by enhancing  environmental richness, and so forth. This part isn't controversial. As for your vague reference to "authoritarianism", it is another empty remark until you can substantiate what it means in the context of this conversation of East-West hermeneutics.

Chinese people (and Russian, as you know) also experience love, and value love. They are not different in that regard.

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Jwayne said:

Your reference point for an absolute claim to morality has shifted to "LGBTQ rights" and "Transparency.org" reports. This is not a philosophical argument but empty talking points. It's arbitrary until you defend what about those specific metrics matter.

Imagine someone saying absolute morality depends on Xinhua News reports and Mandarin-fluency.  It would be equally ridiculous as what you've said.

What is ridiculous is how little you are contemplating the intelligent things I told you. Instead coming back at me with such silly false equivalencies.

Quote

As for Chinese economic progress, it is a measurable objective fact to put food on people's tables (erasing centuries of famine) and thus to give more opportunities to discover and explore individual potential by enhancing  environmental richness, and so forth. This part isn't controversial.

Chinese economic progress is largely the result of adopting Western business practices and trade with the West. So that supports my point more than yours.

If China and Russia both went full West, they would have even more economic abundance.

Quote

As for your vague reference to "authoritarianism", it is another empty remark until you can substantiate what it means in the context of this conversation of East-Wests hermeneutics.

It means a guy appointing himself dictator for life.

Don't play stupid with me.

Hermeneutics? Are you fucking kidding me? Putin will rape you in the ass with a poison-tipped dildo. There's your hermeneutics.

Quote

Chinese people (and Russian, as you know ) also experience love, and value love. They are not different in that regard.

Yeah, well, my understanding of love excludes poisoning your political opponents, throwing journalists and oligarchs out of windows, or imprisoning gays and minorities in re-education camps.

- - - - -

It's like you didn't even consider for a minute the things I said above. So I will stop here. Think before you respond to me.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Chew211]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It means a guy appointing himself dictator for life.

For the record, there is no such thing as a dictator for life in China. This is Xi’s last term. This is common knowledge. 

[Blackhawk]

9 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Blackhawk  "where are all the decent people who can validate my -good vs evil- childish way of viewing the world?" Pleeeeease my weak ego needs someone to tell me we're the good boys ?

if that is the way you understood our points, you're probably a lost case. It was not in the interest of  Europe to try to drag Ukraine into nato or militarize Ukraine as the US did since 2014.  It's only the neo-cons in Washington who have this obsession with hegemony and cornering adversaries, not western Europeans.

Of course Russia is now committing crimes, even a retarded child would understand that. The question is why and whether it could've been avoided in the first place. The answer is obviously yes, it could have been avoided.

Your attitude is precisely what will get Ukraine totally and utterly destroyed. "fight till the last ukrainian" 

You can't think clearly.

Ukraine did nothing against Russia to deserve getting attacked. West did nothing either to make Ukraine deserve getting attacked.

And Russia didn't attack because it feared that Nato might invade Russia. Russia attacked only because it wanted more land, power and resources, wishing to get something like Soviet Union back.

The war is Putin's and Kremlin's fault, no one else's.

The only way how the war could have been avoided is that Ukraine had given the country to Russia without resistance.

I guess you are for that. But I'm for freedom. As a sovereign and free country Ukraine chose to fight against getting enslaved by a dictator. Ukraine is fighting for its freedom and future well-being and prosperity. West gives well-being, freedom and prosperity, while Russia gives enslavement, misery, corruption, poverty, etc.

Ukraine doesn't want to get sucked into a shithole.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blackhawk

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Chew211 said:

This is Xi’s last term.

Haha

[Israfil]

3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

You can't think clearly.

Ukraine did nothing against Russia to deserve getting attacked. West did nothing either to make Ukraine deserve getting attacked.

And Russia didn't attack because it feared that Nato might invade Russia. Russia attacked only because it wanted more land, power and resources, wishing to get something like Soviet Union back.

The war is Putin's and Kremlin's fault, no one else's.

The only way how the war could have been avoided is that Ukraine had given the country to Russia without resistance.

I guess you are for that. But I'm for freedom. As a sovereign and free country Ukraine chose to fight against getting enslaved by a dictator. Ukraine is fighting for its freedom and future well-being and prosperity. West gives well-being, freedom and prosperity, while Russia gives enslavement, misery, corruption, poverty, etc.

Ukraine doesn't want to get sucked into a shithole.

Nato crossed every line it said it wouldn't cross as it was created. The US destabilized Ukranian politics for over 20 years and pressured it into taking measures that would provoke a Russian reaction. 30% of Ukraine's population is Russian and many of them were disregarded as consequence of that influence.

Putin is a motherfucking devil, but so is the US. The red on both flags comes from the blood of the countries that are caught in this domination war.

[Leo Gura]

NATO definitely poked a hibernating bear with a stick. But this bear is now on a delusional rampage.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Blackhawk]

3 hours ago, Israfil said:

Nato crossed every line it said it wouldn't cross as it was created. The US destabilized Ukranian politics for over 20 years and pressured it into taking measures that would provoke a Russian reaction.

Simply not true. Is it fun to believe in falsehood or what? Or do you have a agenda?

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO definitely poked a hibernating bear with a stick. But this bear is now on a delusional rampage.

Dude... stop blaming Nato. It was Ukraine who wanted to join Nato, but Nato said no. And then even Ukraine stopped wanting a Nato membership.

And free countries are allowed to choose their own security policies. So Nato nor Ukraine did anything wrong, only Russia did.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

"That time Ukraine tried to join NATO — and NATO said no"

"a decision was made to offer neither Ukraine nor Georgia a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP)"

"the United States later appeared to drop its support for NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia."

"Yushchenko seemed despondent after the Bucharest summit. "I am sure that the ball is not on the Ukrainian side of the field, Ukraine has done everything it had to do," the Ukrainian president told the Times of London in November 2008. "We are devoted to this pace. Everything else is an issue of political will of those allies who represent NATO.

Ukraine's hopes of joining NATO finally ended in 2010, when Yushchenko lost the presidential election to Viktor Yanukovych, the man he had helped oust during the Orange Revolution and the man forced out by protests earlier this year. Yanukovych announced that he didn't see a need for further integration with NATO: Speaking in May 2010, he explained that it was a "unrealistic prospect" for Ukraine. In June, Ukraine's parliament passed a bill that confirmed the country's nonaligned status and effectively canceled any prospect of joining NATO. Yanukovych began to pursue a more Kremlin-friendly foreign policy."

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

"The interim Yatsenyuk Government initially said that it had no plans to join NATO. However, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian military support for armed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Second Yatsenyuk Government made joining NATO a priority."

 

 

So it was in this order: Ukraine wanted to join Nato, but Nato said no.  >> Ukraine stopped wanting to join Nato. Became more Kremlin friendly  >> Yanukovych (president of Ukraine) was pushed out of office because of protests (it was the will of the Ukrainian people).  >> Russia raped Ukraine by annexing Crimea.  >> Ukraine started to want to join Nato again.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blackhawk

[Israfil]

You conveniently stopped your research before the corrupt govern of Ukraine bent their knees to the EU due to western influence, which was particularly unpopular amongst the Russo-Ukranian population. 

 

Do you have an agenda?

[Israfil]

I'm not justifying atrocities of war, but the west provoked this conflict to make Russia bleed resources. And the cost was a few billions and the lives of Ukranian innocents.

[John Paul]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO definitely poked a hibernating bear with a stick. But this bear is now on a delusional rampage.

A bear? She couldn’t even take Bahkmut in eight months!!! Russia is going to hell! Nobody can match the awesome power of the United States. The Ukrainians were trained by our National Gaurd and now Taiwan is receiving the same trouble. China is shaking.

[Jwayne]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Think before you respond to me.

I've thought a great deal about this line of reasoning from beginning to end. And I've had extensive discussion with other people about it elsewhere over the last few years. I'm comfortable to discuss every detail of it.   But you were more eager to place a temporary ban on my account then examine your own positions.  

So let's try it again.  

What you're claiming is that majority White nations in the Western hemispheres - whom historically enslaved and subjugated the rest of the world based on the belief in the self-superiority of their ideas and genetics - have (again) arrived at a superior state of moral development?

I see a pattern here of Western culture, specifically whatever its latest iteration is, asserting itself as a universal standard. How does this not violate the intellectual sovereignty and self-determination of the rest of the world? The implication is the entire world should emulate what White Western English-speaking nations believe to be right.

[Blackhawk]

2 hours ago, Israfil said:

I'm not justifying atrocities of war, but the west provoked this conflict to make Russia bleed resources. And the cost was a few billions and the lives of Ukranian innocents.

No the west did not provoke this war to make Russia bleed resources.

Russia is the attacker. Period.

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO definitely poked a hibernating bear with a stick. But this bear is now on a delusional rampage.

The only thing Nato can be blamed for is that they kept their door tightly shut for Ukraine. Had Ukraine joined Nato, then this war would have never happened.

[Roy]

16 hours ago, Jwayne said:

Their record of progress speaks for itself.

Going from communism to capitalism (which is what China did) is like the economic equivalent of going from severe bulimia to following a bodybuilding regiment.

"Oh look at all this weight I've gained! Things are working now!"

Yeah.......... no shit. Of course the gap they made up was huge because they started in such a bad place.\

What's scarier still is if history went differently and they were a capitalist country from the start we would probably all be speaking Mandarin on this forum right now instead of English lol.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Roy

[Hardkill]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO definitely poked a hibernating bear with a stick. But this bear is now on a delusional rampage.

James Carville said “Putin is dead wrong about NATO expanding eastward. In truth, the newest NATO members expanded west … out of their own free will. The West has a pull: that pull is about freedom. That pull is about liberty. That pull is about respect for the individual.”

[Blackhawk]

41 minutes ago, Roy said:

Going from communism to capitalism (which is what China did) is like the economic equivalent of going from severe bulimia to following a bodybuilding regiment.

"Oh look at all this weight I've gained! Things are working now!"

Yeah.......... no shit. Of course the gap they made up was huge because they started in such a bad place.\

What's scarier still is if history went differently and they were a capitalist country from the start we would probably all be speaking Mandarin on this forum right now instead of English lol.

China is rich because west gives China money.

[Jwayne]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

Going from communism to capitalism (which is what China did) is like the economic equivalent of going from severe bulimia to following a bodybuilding regiment.

"Oh look at all this weight I've gained! Things are working now!"

Yeah.......... no shit. Of course the gap they made up was huge because they started in such a bad place.\

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can tell you haven't read any books about this time period of contempory Chinese history by the way you are writing.

I'll ask you a question.

If it were so simple as 'going capitalist' then why isn't India as equally well-developed, with routine mega-infrastructure projects and massive annual GDP-growth? Why isn't Bangladesh like Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan? Furthermore, why isn't Taiwan as well-developed as mainland China?

Prosperity is not so simple as transitioning from one set of Maoist policies to another set of 'capitalist' ones. The world is not a video game. It is morelike decades of iteration (starting in the 1930s through 2000s), especially in agricultural reform.  

The foundation for even having a functioning centralized governance to later enact Dengist reforms was first dependent upon the 1949 Revolution. These things move dialectically, which the Chinese understand very well as students of Lao Tzu, Sun Tzu and Marx.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

The only thing Nato can be blamed for is that they kept their door tightly shut for Ukraine. Had Ukraine joined Nato, then this war would have never happened.

This whole war is about Ukraine joining NATO. That is Putin's red line. Putin made this line clear many years ago. But the US did not take him seriously and kept pushing. Now we have war.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Girzo]

I think it's not about NATO. The war would have happened even to stop the process of Ukraine possibly becoming the EU member.

It's mainly a conflict about loosing power over Ukraine and not military imbalance. Ukraine has ports and natural resources and farmlands and russian gas infrastructure.

It's as much a conflit about trade as about military and political power.

 

[LSD-Rumi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This whole war is about Ukraine joining NATO. That is Putin's red line. Putin made this line clear many years ago. But the US did not take him seriously and kept pushing. Now we have war.

I was very surprised when Putin actually started the invasion. Nobody expected that, we all assumed it is all a power move to intimidate the west. I personally think this was an idiotic decision by him. He should have waited and made some sort of agreement with the west. And the west was idiotic too. Who cares about Ukraine joining the NATO or not, fuck Ukraine, Fuck Zalesnski.