Warrants for Putin

[Guest Tobia]

@Leo Gura

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You will get orders to launch a rocket into a schoolhouse, and if you don't follow it you're gonna get in trouble.

Of course you have to obey orders in a war. If a school  is of any use to the ukrainian army, they won't think twice about bombing it. Brutality is part of all wars, not particular to this one

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

3) They are literally emptying prisons in Russia and sending murderers, rapists, and psychopaths into the front line.

This is true, Wagner PMC has recruited many prisoners to do manual labour or man the most dangerous positions on the front line. 

This is not because Russia has a shortage of manpower but rather because the death of these people does not create public discontent

Cruel? Yes

8 hours ago, Hardkill said:

It doesn’t look like Putin can win this war unless he resorts to using tactical nukes or chemical weapons.

This is comical. Russia is already winning the war. No nuclear weapons will be used, it is absurd to even bring it up.

Unless the US steps in directly, for Ukraine it will be over very soon. Even US media is starting to slowly prepare the public for the inevitable reality

 But hey, here you are trusting a network which, for years, told you that the Afghan army was strong. we just need to stay a bit longer...

Edited March 30, 2023 by Tobia

[zurew]

On 2023. 03. 22. at 10:41 AM, Tobia said:

You don't violate people's red lines and then cry about democracy

An interesting question is where is the limit to red lines? If I tell you I have 20 different red lines, and if you cross any of those lines I am going to do x,y,z should I always abide by your rules without limits and let you dictate all the steps I can take, all the things I can do outside your border or should there be a limit to it and if there should be a limit to it, where do you draw the line?

Edited March 30, 2023 by zurew

[Hardkill]

7 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Leo Gura

Of course you have to obey orders in a war. If a school  is of any use to the ukrainian army, they won't think twice about bombing it. Brutality is part of all wars, not particular to this one

This is true, Wagner PMC has recruited many prisoners to do manual labour or man the most dangerous positions on the front line. 

This is not because Russia has a shortage of manpower but rather because the death of these people does not create public discontent

Cruel? Yes

This is comical. Russia is already winning the war. No nuclear weapons will be used, it is absurd to even bring it up.

Unless the US steps in directly, for Ukraine it will be over very soon. Even US media is starting to slowly prepare the public for the inevitable reality

 But hey, here you are trusting a network which, for years, told you that the Afghan army was strong. we just need to stay a bit longer...

How do you know that Russia is winning?

What sources are telling you this?

[Guest Tobia]

@zurew 

On 30/3/2023 at 1:16 PM, zurew said:

An interesting question is where is the limit to red lines? 

There are reasonable red lines and unreasonable red lines.

It is a perfectly reasonable red line to demand that Cuba not host russian or chinese missiles. 

Same goes for Ukraine, the United States had to stay the fuck out of Ukraine. It was made clear by russia since the early 2000s.

They did not, especially since 2014 the interference was explicit and incredibly reckless

Either way, even you consider it an unreasonable red line, failure to respect it was guaranteed to destroy Ukraine.  

[Guest Tobia]

@Hardkill

On 30/3/2023 at 7:49 PM, Hardkill said:

How do you know that Russia is winning?

What sources are telling you this?

If you stepped outside of american media, you would have already realized this.  In Europe most people are now aware that Ukraine is fucked.

Time is completely on Russia's side, russian economy has held strong, russian industry is pumping out weapons 24/7 and the amount of manpower that is now finishing training after fall's mobilization is massive.

The limited operation which was intended in the beginning of 2022 has now turned into total war. 

Ukraine is short on artillery, short on manpower and its economy devasted. It's the beginning of the end

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

59 minutes ago, Tobia said:

@zurew 

There are reasonable red lines and unreasonable red lines.

It is a perfectly reasonable red line to demand that Cuba not host russian or chinese missiles. 

Same goes for Ukraine, the United States had to stay the fuck out of Ukraine. It was made clear by russia since the early 2000s.

They did not, especially since 2014 the interference was explicit and incredibly reckless

Either way, even you consider it an unreasonable red line, failure to respect it was guaranteed to destroy Ukraine.  

   So, in a sense what you're saying is the USA destroyed Ukraine by not respecting that red line Putin had made clear to them?

[Guest Tobia]

@Danioover9000 

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Tobia

   So, in a sense what you're saying is the USA destroyed Ukraine by not respecting that red line Putin had made clear to them?

 The US did everything in its power to corner Russia so they would take the bait and invade. 

[Danioover9000]

@Tobia

3 hours ago, Tobia said:

@Danioover9000 

 The US did everything in its power to corner Russia so they would take the bait and invade. 

   So, in a way you're saying that the USA indirectly ruined Ukraine?

[Israfil]

NATO was created with the promise of no expansion and that countries that border Russia wouldn't join it. They heavily expanded and besides Ukraine, Finland is now the second country on the Russian border in NATO.

I don't think Russia or China are any better than the US, but the US intervention in world politics always harms the pretense of democracy and freedom. The way they promote this is through political manipulation and economic dependency. 

 

 

[John Paul]

Russia’s men are fleeing to the Mexican border to get to the greatest country on earth  Moscow is up in flames.

[Blackhawk]

What is wrong with all you guys who are against USA, Nato, and west. And for Russia and Putin. You are also spreading disinformation.

And why doesn't anyone object against it? Where is the decent people? There's something wrong with this forum.

For the love of God, if you live in a western country, stop spreading disinformation which just hurts yourself.

It's depressing to see so many deluded people.

I need to stop reading threads which are about this kind of topics.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

54 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

@Blackhawk How can you still buy into good guy / bad guy fairy tales?

In which country do you live?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blackhawk

[Jwayne]

12 hours ago, Israfil said:

I don't think Russia or China are any better than the US, but the US intervention in world politics always harms the pretense of democracy and freedom. The way they promote this is through political manipulation and economic dependency.

China is non-interventionist and has been experiencing the fastest economic growth in world history the last few decades, including sharing the prosperity with citizenry (lifting 800m+ people out of poverty) rather than to a mere few financiers at the top. This is very opposite to the USA experience during the same time period.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Jwayne

[Jwayne]

2 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

What is wrong with all you guys who are against USA, Nato, and west. And for Russia and Putin. You are also spreading disinformation.

To engage with that line of reasoning you will need to engage with Eurasian thought on its own terms, the way it sees itself. Such as by reading Aleksandr Dugin and then having a conversation along the merits of multi-polarity, or Dugin-Heideggerian philosophy concerning plurality of dasein, and so forth.

[Blackhawk]

15 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

What does that have to do with my question?

Thanks, I got my answer.

[Guest Tobia]

4 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Where is the decent people? There's something wrong with this forum.

@Blackhawk  "where are all the decent people who can validate my -good vs evil- childish way of viewing the world?" Pleeeeease my weak ego needs someone to tell me we're the good boys ?

4 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

What is wrong with all you guys who are against USA, Nato, and west. And for Russia and Putin.

if that is the way you understood our points, you're probably a lost case. It was not in the interest of  Europe to try to drag Ukraine into nato or militarize Ukraine as the US did since 2014.  It's only the neo-cons in Washington who have this obsession with hegemony and cornering adversaries, not western Europeans.

Of course Russia is now committing crimes, even a retarded child would understand that. The question is why and whether it could've been avoided in the first place. The answer is obviously yes, it could have been avoided.

Your attitude is precisely what will get Ukraine totally and utterly destroyed. "fight till the last ukrainian" 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Jwayne said:

To engage with that line of reasoning you will need to engage with Eurasian thought on its own terms, the way it sees itself. Such as by reading Aleksandr Dugin and then having a conversation along the merits of multi-polarity, or Dugin-Heideggerian philosophy concerning plurality of dasein, and so forth.

Dugin almost sounds convincing, until you realize he's full of shit.

Putin's philosophy is a loser. As was communism. Communism and capitalism were not equal systems. One was better. And Putin is making an analogous mistake again, setting Russia back again.

Putin should have liberalized and Westernized, as Ukraine did. An alliance between the US and Russia would have been a strong net gain for Russia. Now Russia is committed to backwardness for decades while the US will have an AI revolution.

Putin's lust for power has set his country back in progress. The problem for Putin is that progress in not compatible with his authoritarian style. So of course it is an existential threat to him.

China will face a similar problem. Progress will be an existential threat to the CCP. Their government structure is not sustainable.

These are the problems I see with this whole multi-polar world theory. Not all the poles are equal in moral development. Spin it all you want, but at the end of the day Russia and China are corrupt as fuck, which is the key metric of development. And neither of them want to admit it. They act like their shit don't stink when in fact it stinks more than American shit.

America is far from perfect, but Russia and China are further from perfect, except that they also both lie to themselves about that.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jwayne]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dugin almost sounds convincing, until you realize he's full of shit.

Putin's philosophy is a loser. As was communism. Communism and capitalism were not equal systems. One was better. And Putin is making an analogous mistake again, setting Russia back again.

Putin should have liberalized and Westernized, as Ukraine did. An alliance between the US and Russia would have been a strong net gain for Russia. Now Russia is committed to backwardness for decades while the US will have an AI revolution.

Putin's lust for power has set his country back in progress. The problem for Putin is that progress in not compatible with his authoritarian style. So of course it is an existential threat to him.

China will face a similar problem. Progress will be an existential threat to the CCP. Their government structure is not sustainable.

These are the problems I see with this whole multi-polar world theory. Not all the poles are equal in moral development. Spin it all you want, but at the end of the day Russia and China are corrupt as fuck, which is the key metric of development. And neither of them want to admit it. They act like their shit don't stink when in fact it stinks more than American shit.

America is far from perfect, but Russia and China are further from perfect, except that they also both lie to themselves about that.

China is a one-party meritocracy, with a very remarkable history of delivering results over the last 3 decades. Really starting with Deng's reforms. Every measure of economic progress supports the objective achievements of the CCP in uplifting their people from a history of extreme deprivation and poverty (in the 1970s) to an impressively stable, safe, happy and prosperous nation. Their record of progress speaks for itself.

You'll need to elaborate on Dugin and explain what exactly you disagree with. Because "he's full of shit" is an empty signifier to someone whose read his books.

[Jwayne]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem for Putin is that progress in not compatible with his authoritarian style.

These are the problems I see with this whole multi-polar world theory. Not all the poles are equal in moral development.

What is also authoritarian is your implicit claim to a universal morality which all cultures and languages (even those you don't speak, nor understand) should adapt themselves to. That's the definition of cultural-epistemic imperialism. And this implicit claim, ostensibly, is founded on either your personal reasoning and/or mystic experience of 'omniscience' both of which betray messianic thinking. Specifically, that one person - you - has personally come to absolute knowledge (i.e. of morality) and everyone else everywhere must agree and adapt themselves to it. It's obviously peak arrogance.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Jwayne

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Jwayne said:

China is a one-party meritocracy, with a very remarkable history of delivering results over the last 3 decades. Really starting with Deng's reforms. Every measure of economic progress supports the objective achievements of the CCP in uplifting their people from a history of extreme deprivation and poverty (in the 1970s) to an impressively stable, safe, happy and prosperous nation. Their record of progress speaks for itself.

That's a very charitable characterization of Chinese authoritarianism.

Dugin is a nationalist, which is not very intelligent.

36 minutes ago, Jwayne said:

What is also authoritarian is your implicit claim to a universal morality which all cultures and languages (even those you don't speak, nor understand) should adapt themselves to. That's the definition of cultural-epistemic imperialism. And this implicit claim, ostensibly, is founded on

There is something universal to Consciousness and human psychic development. Or if not universal, at the very least human.

We're not dealing with xenomorphs here. We're dealing with fellow humans. Morality is not purely relative within humans, there is a shared genetic basis. Do not pretend like tribes of humans are all aliens to each other.

Quote

either your personal reasoning and/or mystic experience of 'omniscience' both of which betray messianic thinking. Specifically, that one person - you - has personally come to absolute knowledge (i.e. of morality) and everyone else everywhere must agree and adapt themselves to it. It's obviously peak arrogance.

It's not messianic thinking, it's Consciousness and Love.

But more practically, to your level of comprehension, there is such a thing as cognitive, moral, political, and spiritual development. And China and Russia are both "objectively" less developed on average than America. Not everything is as relative as you claim. As I said above, if you want one simple objective metric of a country's development just look at the corruption index and LGBTQ rights:

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index

You can try to weasel your way out of this by appeals to relativity, but don't kid yourself. People abuse relativity quite badly to make silly moral false equivalencies. Russia and China are less cognitively, morally, spiritually, and politically developed than America. And that is why their economies are weaker and the rich flee from there. Most of the best scientists, engineers, and businesspeople leave Russia and China for the West.

Why do you think I'm in America and not in Russia? The kind of work I do could not be done in Russia or China. They would have killed me long ago. Thus the Western world primarily benefits from my work. And I'm just one example.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Leo Gura