How do I know if the experience on psychedelics is real?

[Unlimited]

A friend is often very critical about psychedelics.
He is asking me how I can know if the experience on psychedelics is real and not just some illusion.
Even if I think it is real I find it difficult to explain him my point precisely.

What would you tell someone like him?

[Leo Gura]

How do you know anything is real?

[Arthogaan]

Tell him that out of billions of possible neurotransmitters in the brain he is hallucinating daily on serotonine, melatonine, adrenaline and others. So why would he assume that those substances give any more true picture than others.

[Osaid]

Tell him to define "real" and watch his worldview crumble in real time

[Unlimited]

37 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Tell him to define "real" and watch his worldview crumble in real time

I already asked him that and he said the following.

"Reality is the Universe outside of us which we can perceive with limited senses. Because if there wasn't something real outside then there is nothing to perceive. Something must be perceived and that something is reality."

 

[Unlimited]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How do you know anything is real?

This is a question I ask myself all the time.
With my past experiences it feels like only consciousness is real but consciousness is everything.
Does it mean that everything is real because everything is absolute?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Does it mean that everything is real

Of course. In the 1st order sense.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Osaid]

43 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Reality is the Universe outside of us which we can perceive with limited senses. Because if there wasn't something real outside then there is nothing to perceive. Something must be perceived and that something is reality.

How do psychedelic experiences not fit into this criteria?

I also find this distinction interesting: "reality is the universe outside of us which we perceive". Does that mean that you, the perceiver, are not a part of reality, and thus you aren't real? 

[Unlimited]

9 minutes ago, Osaid said:

How do psychedelic experiences not fit into this criteria?

I also find this distinction interesting: "reality is the universe outside of us which we perceive". Does that mean that you, the perceiver, are not a part of reality, and thus you aren't real? 

He said: "Psychedelics do not fit the criteria because they simply change the way you perceive reality. Thus not making them reality."

To the second question: "We are part of reality because we are inside it and and have the consciousness to perceive it from the inside as well.
Imagine it's like a fish in the Ocean. He is part of the Ocean. But he can also perceive the Ocean which is outside/around him."

 

1 hour ago, Arthogaan said:

Tell him that out of billions of possible neurotransmitters in the brain he is hallucinating daily on serotonine, melatonine, adrenaline and others. So why would he assume that those substances give any more true picture than others.

To this he just replied why do you think that he assumes that.

 

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course. In the 1st order sense.

Okay thank you.


I ask myself if it benefits me to have conversations with people about this topic that a critical and I don't only mean psychedelics.
Sometimes it just triggers my ego.
And it is also very hard for me to put this in words that others can understand what I mean.
I guess it is better for me to go deeper into this topic and to have more psychedelic experiences before I start talking with other people (besides this forum) about it.

[Osaid]

17 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Psychedelics do not fit the criteria because they simply change the way you perceive reality. Thus not making them reality.

There are many things which are not psychedelics that are constantly changing how you perceive reality.

If someone with bad eyesight wears prescription lenses to correct their eyesight, is their perception of reality unreal since it is being augmented? How does using something to change your perception of reality prove that it is unreal? 

Furthermore, is the perception of a colorblind person "less real" than someone who doesn't have colorblindness? Is colorblindness as a whole "not real" since it is changing how someone perceives colors? Where is the line drawn?

Edited March 14, 2023 by Osaid

[Salvijus]

The insights on psychedelics are very much possible to be false projections of the ego. 

One way to look at it is. Everything u see and experience is in some way filtered through the ego. So as long as you have ego u see diferenet degrees of distortions and not the truth. 

So by following that logic the answer becomes. Eradicate everything that is distorting your perception of reality. All mental defilements, all ego. Make the mirror clean. Then u will know the truth.

That's the only logical way of knowing when your perception is truly true imo

Edited March 14, 2023 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The insights on psychedelics are very much possible to be false projections of the ego. 

Just like sober insights.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Just like sober insights.

Yes. I implied that in my post aswell.

Every experience both sober, non sober and everything in between goes through the filter of ego. Unless those lenses and all defilements are eradicated. Real truth will be veiled to some extent with those lenses.

This view point can be questioned of course. Perhaps there're some exceptions to it. But so far i think it's a very solid and logical view point.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

@Salvijus What you're saying is that self-deception is always a factor. And of course that's our situation.

Everything in this work boils down to skillfully avoiding self-deception. And if you fail that, God himself cannot help you. And there are not guarantees of safety.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What you're saying is that self-deception is always a factor

Im saying smth else tho. Im saying distortions of experience are unavoidable as long as ego and a mental defilements are not eradicated. And only a clear mind, like a clear mirror can show u truth without any distortions.

Welcome to disagree, im myself are willing to look at alternative view points. But don't just brush it off as bs and count that as a valid counter-argument ? 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

imo experiences are not false or true, they are experiences and that's it. It could be said that they are all true. the matter is: infinity. How far can you be open to infinity? Do psychedelics help you to this, to dissolve the limits? for this you need understanding. what you understand is not true or false in a conceptual sense, it is useful to dissolve the limits or it is not. deep understanding is not conceptual, it is the understanding of yourself from yourself, there is no doubt of its veracity because it opens you up.

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Im saying smth else tho. Im saying distortions of experience are unavoidable as long as ego and a mental defilements are not eradicated. And only a clear mind, like a clear mirror can show u truth without any distortions.

Fine, but defilements will always be there as long as you're alive.

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Fine, but defilements will always be there as long as you're alive.

this is a memoriable moment for me. The biggest consensus we've ever reached on this forum 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Salvijus

[Yimpa]

6 hours ago, Unlimited said:

A friend is often very critical about psychedelics.
He is asking me how I can know if the experience on psychedelics is real and not just some illusion.

 Is he very critical about psychedelics, yet he’s never tried them himself? Love to hear it. 
 

Fun fact: I was taught in middle school the dangers of ketamine. Little did I know that 15 years later I’d be doing ketamine, and it saved my life. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Yimpa

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, Unlimited said:

Reality is the Universe outside of us which we can perceive with limited senses. Because if there wasn't something real outside then there is nothing to perceive. Something must be perceived and that something is reality."

most people think so. from that point of view, the psychedelic experience is false, since it distorts reality. they consider themselves receivers who try to capture the external objective reality in the most precise way possible. they are completely wrong. there is no outside. reality is them. As long as they cannot see this, all they will do is widen the gap of their error. Until you realize that reality, you are deceived. When you realize that you are the reality and there is not outside, the real exploration starts