The growing trend by Republicans attacking LGBTQ people should concern everyone

[Romanov]

It’s not so much LGBT people as it is LGBT propaganda. Brow beating people into LGBT acceptance is going to make them less accepting. Going after the children is also a no go for me. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Romanov

[Romanov]

On 3/14/2023 at 0:45 AM, Emerald said:

They’re going much further than they have before.

The popular anti-LGBTQ messaging before was that being gay/trans was a sin and that they didn’t want to support it. The homophobia and transphobia was typically couched in more moderate talking points.

Right now the messaging is that the LGBTQ community is pedophilic and grooming your children.

And it’s getting lots of otherwise accepting or indifferent people to vehemently hate gays and trans people.

Once you convince a populace that a certain group is full of child molesters, society will want them dead with their heads on a pike.

And Fascists know that. It’s a very effective tactic to drum up moderate support for their agendas.

Nazis we’re very successful in getting everyday citizens to hate Jewish people (and to amplify pre-existing prejudice) by spreading rumors that Jewish men are sex pests that want to kidnap and molest their children.

They even wrote it into children’s books to “warn” non-Jewish children that Jewish men were dangerous and to stay away from them.

And unfortunately these tactics are very effective.

And there are right wing militia groups with guns and full military gear going to drag shows to intimidate people.

And there are bills that are being pushed in state legislatures to classify parents seeking gender affirming care for their trans kids as child abusers and to get their kids taken away.

There was a bill floated yesterday in Texas where average citizens can act as bounty hunters for drag queens.

So, it’s in the legalistic phase. There have been HUNDREDS of anti-gay/trans bill floated since January.

And what the OP says is right.

It’s always “last hired, first fired” with Fascists. Trans folks and drag queens are just the easiest targets right now because transphobia is still pretty normal in the eyes of many Americans.

This is how those in Fascist movements establish their foothold in the veneer of being moderate. And then they keep working their way backwards from there once they get their foothold.

“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

It is not fascism to protect children. Under gender-affirming care, puberty blocking drugs such as Lupron are being prescribed to kids-the same drugs used to chemically castrate pedophiles. Children aren’t fully mentally developed (according to science) to decide whether chopping off their genitals or chemically altering their hormones is right for them. 
 

 

[Devin]

@Romanov  And they're basing their reasoning off WEAK studies, it's absurd, far too radical. The pronoun and sports situation is just effectively throwing out all sense of the customs of our culture.

        When you live in a society we have somewhat of a framework of customs we abide by, we're a tribe that doesn't give full autonomy to children, even adults actually, this isn't a hippie fest.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Devin

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Romanov said:

Children aren’t fully mentally developed (according to science) to decide whether chopping off their genitals

Show me a case of a child having their genitals chopped off.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Romanov said:

It is not fascism to protect children. Under gender-affirming care, puberty blocking drugs such as Lupron are being prescribed to kids-the same drugs used to chemically castrate pedophiles. Children aren’t fully mentally developed (according to science) to decide whether chopping off their genitals or chemically altering their hormones is right for them. 

Number one, no one under the age of 18 is permitted to get bottom surgery. So, no child is having their genitals chopped off.

Also, Nazis often used the “protect the children” rhetoric to justify what they were doing. And I’m sure many of them even thought that they were protecting children.

But the thing that makes Fascistic ends more likely is all the false rhetoric around the LGBTQ community “grooming children”.

Grooming means readying the child to be taken advantage of sexually by an adult. It’s a way of accusing LGBTQ people of being pedophiles.

And this implication can make lots of otherwise accepting or indifferent people want to harm gay and trans people when they hear these lies.

And it’s very dangerous for trans and gay people politically as well. We can see this by the sudden uptick in anti-trans bills.

[Devin]

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2022/09/age-restriction-lifted-for-gender-affirming-surgery-in-new-international-guidelines/?fj=1

"CHICAGO --- The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) today today announced its updated Standards of Care and Ethical Guidelines for health professionals. Among the updates is a new suggestion to lift the age restriction for youth seeking gender-affirming surgical treatment, in comparison to previous suggestion of surgery at 17 or older. "

Edited March 17, 2023 by Devin

[Leo Gura]

@Devin Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

That is certainly the slippery slope that conservatives are freaked out about.

Just as progressives see DeSantis as a slippery slope to Hell, conservatives see LGBTQ as a slippery slope to Hell.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Devin Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

That is certainly the slippery slope that conservatives are freaked out about.

Just as progressives see DeSantis as a slippery slope to Hell, conservatives see LGBTQ as a slippery slope to Hell.

What is your opinion on gender surgery for children?

[Romanov]

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

Number one, no one under the age of 18 is permitted to get bottom surgery. So, no child is having their genitals chopped off.

Also, Nazis often used the “protect the children” rhetoric to justify what they were doing. And I’m sure many of them even thought that they were protecting children.

But the thing that makes Fascistic ends more likely is all the false rhetoric around the LGBTQ community “grooming children”.

Grooming means readying the child to be taken advantage of sexually by an adult. It’s a way of accusing LGBTQ people of being pedophiles.

And this implication can make lots of otherwise accepting or indifferent people want to harm gay and trans people when they hear these lies.

And it’s very dangerous for trans and gay people politically as well. We can see this by the sudden uptick in anti-trans bills.

 

Although not all LGBT people are pedophiles, there has been a case with a pedophile drag queen back in 2019. LGBT, like priests, are not immune to having pedophilic tendencies: 
https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-participated-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Library-apologizes-for-letting-registered-sex-13693986.php

And even if there’s no pedophilia going on, there’s still a lot of sexualization. This mural of a man in a gimp suit got defaced in Australia, no kids should be walking by seeing this: 

 

The WPATH has been lowering the age limits for gender reassignment surgery:

https://apnews.com/article/gender-transition-treatment-guidelines-9dbe54f670a3a0f5f2831c2bf14f9bbb
 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/980935

Edited March 18, 2023 by Romanov

[Romanov]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Show me a case of a child having their genitals chopped off.

17 year old here is the youngest to have it done:

https://cbs6albany.com/amp/news/nation-world/new-hampshire-teen-one-of-the-youngest-to-have-gender-reassignment-surgery
 

Why did the WPATH lift its age limits for gender re-affirming surgery? 
 

https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/transgender-health-org-removes-age-limit-for-gender-affirming-treatment-surgery

[Emerald]

21 minutes ago, Romanov said:

 

Although not all LGBT people are pedophiles, there has been a case with a pedophile drag queen back in 2019:
https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-participated-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Library-apologizes-for-letting-registered-sex-13693986.php

And even if there’s no pedophilia going on, there’s still a lot of sexualization. This mural of a man in a gimp suit got defaced in Australia, no kids should be walking by seeing this: 

 

The WPATH has been lowering the age limits for gender reassignment surgery:

https://apnews.com/article/gender-transition-treatment-guidelines-9dbe54f670a3a0f5f2831c2bf14f9bbb
 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/980935

Of course, there’s bound to be occasional cases of a drag queen at drag queen story hour being a pedophile… just like there will be occasional cases of teachers and babysitters and others who work with kids being pedophiles.

Unfortunately, careers and events that are kid-centric will always be infiltrated by the occasional pedophile.

But that’s no reason to think that the LGBTQ community has a higher percentage of pedophiles compared to straight/cisgender people.

As far as my current view on top and bottom surgery, it would make sense to make people wait until 18 for these more invasive procedures.

And I don’t think they should offer the surgeries in the 17 and over category until 18.

Many trans people can’t even afford the surgeries anyway. So, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to make people wait another year.

That said, I say this tentatively because I know there are some really bad cases of gender dysphoria. And if it’s causing a real mental health hazard to avoid surgical intervention, then I would be open to reconsider my stance on a case by case basis.

But I do think that the medications should be available to those who show consistent signs of being trans over a period of time.

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Romanov said:

17 year old here is the youngest to have it done:

https://cbs6albany.com/amp/news/nation-world/new-hampshire-teen-one-of-the-youngest-to-have-gender-reassignment-surgery

Interesting. Seems like she's happy with it though.

Quote

Why did the WPATH lift its age limits for gender re-affirming surgery?

https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/transgender-health-org-removes-age-limit-for-gender-affirming-treatment-surgery

It's very tricky. It will help some people and hurt others. How do you regulate something like that as a one-size-fits-all solution?

Edited March 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura Do you agree with gender surgery for children?

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura Do you agree with gender surgery for children?

Generally not. Only is some very extreme case after lots of therapy.

I think a good compromise position here is to force these kids to go to therapy for a least a few years and only talk about surgery as a last resort.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@How to be wise

6 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura Do you agree with gender surgery for children?

   I don't like how this question is framed, it's like a questatement, and I've seen this one done before in abortion debates. Like you're trying to get a gotcha moment.

[How to be wise]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@How to be wise

   I don't like how this question is framed, it's like a questatement, and I've seen this one done before in abortion debates. Like you're trying to get a gotcha moment.

They can always wait until adulthood. It’s no big deal.

[DocWatts]

The context in which the question of "should people under the age of 18 be allowed gender affirming care up to and including surgery" matters a great deal here.

And yes there is some nuance to this question. But unfortunately, in %99 of instances this question isn't being asked with any concern whatsoever for the wellbeing of people who are struggling with gender identity issues.

In the vast majority of cases it's being used as a dog whistle to dehumanize non-gender conforming individuals as somehow 'impure' or 'unnatural'.

This is because conservative moral intuitions include "purity" as a moral foundation, and this isn't as pronounced in more progressively minded folks. So it's no surprise that conservatives tend to react to transgender individuals with a gut level feeling of discomfort and disgust that gets misconstrued in ethical terms.

Their limbic system is screaming at them that "this just feels wrong". Individuals don't choose these gut level intuitions, they're a results of a person's physiology and of the cumulation of thier life experiences.

Now of course these gut level intuitions can be examined and changed over time, but this involves a lot of emotionally difficult inner work. This sort of thing only becomes a realistic possibility when an individual's survival needs doesn't preclude them from reexamining aspects of their identity.

So the path of least resistance then will be to use rationalizations and ethical arguments serve as a sort of Public Relations firm to justify the gut level discomfort that the existence of trans folks triggers in them.

Edited March 19, 2023 by DocWatts

[Danioover9000]

   When did this thread become so creepy?

[Arcangelo]

On 3/13/2023 at 10:45 PM, Emerald said:

Right now the messaging is that the LGBTQ community is pedophilic and grooming your children.

Incorrect. They have been doing it forever. Nothing new here.

[Arcangelo]

On 3/16/2023 at 0:57 PM, Danioover9000 said:

  I don't care who started this heated discussion, but NO HEATED ARGUING AND DEBATE! Against forum guidelines. Try to address the key points in each of your argumentations without assassinating each others character, okay?

LOL!

Love you Danny!