Vegan meat is a scam.

[supremeyingyang]

Just make your own 'meat', never bother again.

Recipe:

Find Beans, Oat and a little Onion. Use a blender and add then some hot water and whatever spices you like. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Fry or bake. Tada! You have damn find vegan burgerpatties with no BS added - for 1€ for 12 or so Patties depending on size.

Regarding the conversation: Meat: double plus bad, Pseudomeat: less bad but still bad.

Edited March 20, 2023 by supremeyingyang

[universe]

There are like a gazillion different vegan meat products. Made from soy, mushrooms, walnuts, oats, wheat gluten, jackfruit, rice, tofu and tempeh just to name a few.

Which ones are we talking about here?

Its the same with meat. Pork sausage is not the same as sardines.

[supremeyingyang]

5 minutes ago, universe said:

There are like a gazillion different vegan meat products. Made from soy, mushrooms, walnuts, oats, wheat gluten, jackfruit, rice, tofu and tempeh just to name a few.

Which ones are we talking about here?

Its the same with meat. Pork sausage is not the same as sardines.

I'm triggered by the fact you categorized pork and fish under meat. But also.. good point. I understood that he meant eclusively this new stuff that tastes REALLY like meat due to a food chemistry magic. Tempeh and fermented Tofu is surely superior to meat if eaten in moderation. Jackfruit has basically no Protein, but tastes good. Can't recomment gluten or Soy or cheap Tofu.

[universe]

It's just absurd, how poeple hang on one single word to label all vegan meat as if it's the only alternative heard. This way good companies never get the props I feel they ever deserve.

[supremeyingyang]

5 hours ago, universe said:

It's just absurd, how poeple hang on one single word to label all vegan meat as if it's the only alternative heard. This way good companies never get the props I feel they ever deserve.

they get their props from what I see

[Michael569]

8 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

Find Beans, Oat and a little Onion. Use a blender and add then some hot water and whatever spices you like. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Fry or bake

too complicated, too many steps.

No need to fry and no need to sit. Just blitz it all with some tahini, herbs and oat milk and bake  seriously tho, homemade plant burgers are the easiest thing and they are way more delicious than any meat I have ever tasted. 

Once you master your own, anything out there doesn't come close to it and you can even avoid the  #toxicseedoilzconspiracy 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Michael569

[supremeyingyang]

1 minute ago, Michael569 said:

seriously tho, homemade plant burgers are the easiest thing and they are way more delicious than any meat I have ever tasted. 

Once you master your own, anything out there doesn't come close to it and you can even avoid the #toxicseedoilz

 

100%

[universe]

On 20.3.2023 at 10:46 PM, Michael569 said:

  #toxicseedoilzconspiracy 

Whats with coconut oil?

[Schizophonia]

On 14/03/2023 at 0:52 PM, Twega said:

@Bobby_2021

If you're actually willing to look at the detailed science of Seed oils, then watch this:

 

Surprise, surprise: it's not what you've been told (the majority opinion is that they're horrible).

Just because something improves LDL cholesterol markers doesn't mean it's healthy.

1) Your vegetable oils are already largely rancid (oxidized) when they are sold in supermarkets, even olive oil rich in oleic acid and therefore supposed to be more resistant to oxidation is easily oxidized.
They are simply not products that can be bottled for a long time and you will smell it anyway with a bitter dirty taste.

2) You can't deny that eating high amounts of polyunsaturated fat is modern.
Even if you subscribe to the vegan thesis that humans are starch eaters you are automatically in favor of the oxidation of saturated fats because the fats created from glucose are overwhelmingly long chain saturated fats and oleic acid (omega 9).

Muscles at rest consume a lot of fat and these fats are preferentially saturated

3) Polyunsaturated fats are estrogenic and carcinogenic.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-carcinogenic-and-estrogenic-effects-of-pufa.22048/

You can see ray peat's other works.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

On 20/03/2023 at 3:41 PM, universe said:

There are like a gazillion different vegan meat products. Made from soy, mushrooms, walnuts, oats, wheat gluten, jackfruit, rice, tofu and tempeh just to name a few.

Which ones are we talking about here?

Its the same with meat. Pork sausage is not the same as sardines.

You forget to specify that the sardines and the pork are only one ingredient, possibly salt.

Men are not herbivores, no one wants to eat beans and brown rice, this is incredibly boring especially if your calorie demands are high, plus it gives you gas, possibly poorer cognition due to endotoxins etc.

So you're obviously going to cheat by making "bean and oatmeal patties" armored in spices that vaguely resemble meat to make it more edible.
With baked potatoes, because obviously you don't like the stuffy starchy texture of potatoes and baking them in the oven allows you to pass it all off because the taste of the thin cooked layer due to the reaction of mayard on your potatoes reminds you of the unami taste of animal proteins.

A little ketchup and you're ready to eat then post on actualized.org that veganism is awesome, like the sjw "supremeyingyang" above you who supposedly literally blocked me for politely feeding my own topic, because he didn't like my questions. 

 

 

-> Stop lying to yourself 

[Nilsi]

You know how they say "look at the philosopher, if you want to know what this philosophy will do to you."

I feel the same way about vegans and people eating plant burgers. 9/10 times they are meek, unattractive, unintelligent, uninspired, unsuccessful people - yet they are so righteous about knowing whats "healthy." 

Look at some carnivore and animal based guys and you will find the exact inverse.

If postmodernism and psychoanalysis have taught us anything, its that this is far from being a trivial point. But people will deny this and quote some stupid scientific papers of course. Which is really the same level of irony as a fundamentalists claiming that God exists, because it says so in the bible.

[Michael569]

@universe what about it?

[universe]

@Michael569

Is it also a conspiracy, because I've heard that it's unhealthy numerous times in the past. For I think the same reasons, Omega 3.

[RendHeaven]

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Just because something improves LDL cholesterol markers doesn't mean it's healthy.

1) Your vegetable oils are already largely rancid (oxidized) when they are sold in supermarkets, even olive oil rich in oleic acid and therefore supposed to be more resistant to oxidation is easily oxidized.
They are simply not products that can be bottled for a long time and you will smell it anyway with a bitter dirty taste.

2) You can't deny that eating high amounts of polyunsaturated fat is modern.
Even if you subscribe to the vegan thesis that humans are starch eaters you are automatically in favor of the oxidation of saturated fats because the fats created from glucose are overwhelmingly long chain saturated fats and oleic acid (omega 9).

Muscles at rest consume a lot of fat and these fats are preferentially saturated

3) Polyunsaturated fats are estrogenic and carcinogenic.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-carcinogenic-and-estrogenic-effects-of-pufa.22048/

You can see ray peat's other works.

Shhhhhhhh

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

You forget to specify that the sardines and the pork are only one ingredient, possibly salt.

Men are not herbivores, no one wants to eat beans and brown rice, this is incredibly boring especially if your calorie demands are high, plus it gives you gas, possibly poorer cognition due to endotoxins etc.

So you're obviously going to cheat by making "bean and oatmeal patties" armored in spices that vaguely resemble meat to make it more edible.
With baked potatoes, because obviously you don't like the stuffy starchy texture of potatoes and baking them in the oven allows you to pass it all off because the taste of the thin cooked layer due to the reaction of mayard on your potatoes reminds you of the unami taste of animal proteins.

A little ketchup and you're ready to eat then post on actualized.org that veganism is awesome, like the sjw "supremeyingyang" above you who supposedly literally blocked me for politely feeding my own topic, because he didn't like my questions. 

 

 

-> Stop lying to yourself 

yo CHILL lmaooooo

[Schizophonia]

15 hours ago, Nilsi said:

 

Look at some carnivore and animal based guys and you will find the exact inverse.

Many vegans will consume products that greatly reduce androgen sensitivity and/or the conversion of testosterone into much more androgenic hormones (DHT, then androsterone, androstenedione…).

 

These products are Tea (especially green), polyunsaturated fats, lauric acid (coconut oil), certain edible seeds such as pumpkin seeds, brown rice, certain nuts (apart from fats)…

 

So even though they may have normal and sometimes even high testosterone levels, they may become more effeminate in their behavior, way of thinking and appearance over time.

 

The effect is all the more dramatic on children and especially adolescents where a high level of DHT and downstream hormones is essential for the.  masculinization.  Most of the vegan boy kids I see on YouTube look like chicks.

[Michael569]

22 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Many vegans will consume products that greatly reduce androgen sensitivity and/or the conversion of testosterone into much more androgenic hormones (DHT, then androsterone, androstenedione…).

 

These products are Tea (especially green), polyunsaturated fats, lauric acid (coconut oil), certain edible seeds such as pumpkin seeds, brown rice, certain nuts (apart from fats)…

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

I mean actual longitudinal evidence that shows vegans are more likely to be androgen deprived.

We can make mechanistic speculations all day long but has any of that actually been demonstrated in humans? Are cultures with highest green tea consumption more likely to have low testo levels? 

Any RCTs you can share where people are given green tea and their levels drop? Permanently or transiently?

If green tea is so bad why is it consistently associated with lower incidents of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, prostate cancer, breast cancer and mental health disease? Even periodontal health is positively impacted by it. 

If anything, if something was shown to reduce DHT in adults that's a MAJOR benefit. You don't want high DHT post teenage years especially if you have history of prostate cancer in family

So If drinking more green tea will ensure i can skip a prostate cancer that men part 65 in my family are getting and the mechanism is DHT reduction (even at the cost of my strength at the gym going 10% down) then I'll say fuck yeah gimme more of that stuff.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

So If drinking more green tea will ensure i can skip a prostate cancer that men part 65 in my family are getting and the mechanism is DHT reduction (even at the cost of my strength at the gym going 10% down) then I'll say fuck yeah gimme more of that stuff.

The problems start, when you swipe all these tradeoffs under the rug and present your advice, as if it's somehow objectively true.

You are transmitting your biases to everyone following your advice - and you have not the slightest bit of remorse about it. In fact, you boast about how scientific you are.

The only reason this can fly, is because virtually no nutritionist is properly educated in epistemology to spot this malpractice. 

And of course, there is no incentive for you to be more epistemically rigorous, as that will just turn off your clients; and of course, everyone else is as sloppy as you, so why even bother?

[Michael569]

@Nilsi can you translate all this jibberish to something practical for me to respond to please?

Which part of what I said you disagree with and why? 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

@Nilsi can you translate all this jibberish to something practical for me to respond to please?

Which part of what I said you disagree with and why? 

Dont play stupid.

What I wrote was very straight forward. Unless you have a <100 IQ, you understand what I said.

You present your advice on nutritition, as if it were true - but youre really just presenting your biases.

This is like me presenting say Marxism, as if it were true, without the disclaimer that its only one out of a vast number of political theories.

And when someone comes and questions your paradigm, you get defensive and quote some scientific papers from people with the same biases as you.