Vegan meat is a scam.

[Bobby_2021]

https://youtu.be/CTJj6Gjw7YU

So yeah you would want to stay away from this horrible poison. Also, avoid seed oils and processed foods. 

 

 

[Michael569]

There is so much wrong with this video. SO much pseudoscience, so much nonsense, cherry-picking, human evidence denial and mechanistic bs reasoning that it makes me want to vomit. (not vegan myself so I have no personal agenda in saying this) 

• plant-based meats are not poisonous - in fact we have a few preliminary RCTs (look up Christopher Gardner's studies) that show compared to beef they help reduce cholesterol and triglycerides as early as in 4 weeks 
• vegetable oils are not poison either, they don't cause cancer or heart disease or none of that - this is a a low-carb nonsense once again based on mechanistic speculation. Compared to high saturate fats like beef fat, tallow and butter they are highly beneficial in the human outcome data - let's stop spreading nonsense
• glyphosates are a problem, that's true - but so are antibiotics and hormones in your meat not to mention TMAO increasing properties, microbiome alteration and higher risk of forming colonic polyps in regular beef consumers compared to vegetarians and vegans 
• beef has consistently been associated with an increased rate of cardiovascular events, increased risk of stroke, coronary heart disease, breast cancer, liver cancer and bowel cancer. 
• while plant meats are not perfect, they are processed food and can lead to overconsumption, they are absolutely better than consuming beef the way most people do. When calories are accounted for they are much much better and safer option. 
  • here as an interview with an actual researcher who is leading multiple clinical trials addressing this topic

Make sure not to make up your mind on a single video that references no high-quality studies, just random reviews and mechanisms. Expose yourself to a variety of opinions of people who actually bother to do the research. 

Nothing personal here @Bobby_2021, this is not a direct attack, just disputing this video. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Michael569

[LSD-Rumi]

5 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

There is so much wrong with this video. SO much pseudoscience, so much nonsense, cherry-picking, human evidence denial and mechanistic bs reasoning that it makes me want to vomit. (not vegan myself so I have no personal agenda in saying this) 

• plant-based meats are not poisonous - in fact we have a few preliminary RCTs (look up Christopher Gartner's studies) that show compared to beef they help reduce cholesterol and triglycerides as early as in 4 weeks 
• vegetable oils are not poison either, they don't cause cancer or heart disease or none of that - this is a a low-carb nonsense once again based on mechanistic speculation. Compared to high saturate fats like beef fat, tallow and butter they are highly beneficial in the human outcome data - let's stop spreading nonsense
• glyphosates are a problem, that's true - but so are antibiotics and hormones in your meat not to mention TMAO increasing properties, microbiome alteration and higher risk of forming colonic polyps in regular beef consumers compared to vegetarians and vegans 
• beef has consistently been associated with increased rate of cardiovascular events, increased risk of stroke, coronary heart disease, breast cancer, liver cancer and bowel cancer. 
• while plant meats are not perfect, they are processed food and can lead to overconsumption, they are absolutely better than consuming beef the way most people do. When calories are acoounted for (again, check Chris Gartner's studies) they are much much better and safer option. 

Make sure not to make up your mind on a single video that references no high quality studies, just random reviews and mechanisms. Expose yourself to a variety of opinions of people who actually bother to do the research. 

Nothing personal here @Bobby_2021, I used to believe all of this for years. These people can be very convincing 

You are the man dude, keep smashing every antivegan nonsesne with a sledge hammer 

[player1995]

I never understood why people need to eat anything like meat to begin with. It makes me puke to even think about.

I had a jack-fruit burger once and returned it cause it felt like meat, horrible experience. I will agree that vegan meat is maybe healthier than regular meat for the homo-sapian but I do not agree that it is healthy.

Our bodies were never designed to utilize (processed foods/chemicals/powders) ect.. we have in modern foods and it is one of the main reasons the human consciousness, intelligence and capacity for full potential is low and disturbed.

When we let go of all that "fake-food" and eat real food things will become "alive" again within us.

It wont matter whether its meat, potatoes, vegetables or fruit. The KEY is in the (whole-food) non-processed, organic, directly from the farm or better your own organic garden and directly onto your plate. Your body/mind will function in superior fashion and be most vibrant and healthy.

I personally believe we need to consume at least 80% raw "living" food and maybe 20% of your comforts for a balance of alkaline/acid and better if you mono-eat, this gives the body a break from trying to process 100 different spices at once, we are just not designed for it.

The body is indeed extremely intelligent and can handle and adapt, but if you wanna tap into your best, keep it simple and as close to nature as possible.

Edited March 13, 2023 by player1995

[ZenAlex]

If you're really concerned with health on a vegan diet you shouldn't be relying on mock meats/highly processed foods to begin with. 

[Bobby_2021]

@Michael569 Thanks for your input. We are cool.

Delving into the nuances of studies can be done, but it's a waste of time since studies can be bought and sold these days.

These hyper processed chemicals can have an impact on your system on a longer time span than any of those studies care to mention. My biggest worry is that the primary reason they try so hard to normalise plant based meat is due to climate change and ethical concerns. Which is why people have extremely emotional takes on something as simple as food.

As a rule of thumb, it's better to stay away from heavily processed foods like seed oils, no matter whatever science or studies might say. Many studies even calim that there are "acceptable levels" toxic chemicals that are allowed in your body, while there is none.

I will stick to my real life experience on this one. And it's my obligation to inform any vegan on this issue so that they make a conscious choice and not let Bill Gates guilt trip them into eating vegan meat, even when he himself enjoys normal stake in his private jet. 

[Leo Gura]

Highly processed food is bad. Of course these factory concoctions are not good. Many vegans eat garbage just in the name of veganism.

Vegan != healthy

Edited March 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Michael569]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Highly processed food is bad. Of course these factory concoctions are not good. Many vegans eat garbage just in the name of veganism.

Let's not forget that these products are not being developed and aimed for the average member of this forum who is a self-optimisation freak 

It's the artificial sweetener argument once again

A healthy, fit person who eats a wholefood diet does not need this stuff nor do they benefit from it - duuh 

To a person with major blood lipid issues (high ApoB, high LDL, low HDL, high triglycerides) who has no control over their diet, is overweight, pre-diabetic  who eats beef burgers 3 times a week (e.g. a significant % of British & American boomer & Gen X populus), if you can give him a plant burger that tastes the same but now it comes alongside zero coke, vegan mayo with reduced saturated fats and sweet potato chips with reduced salt you bet your life they're gonna get better lipid readings, betetr blood sugar and lower risk of bowel cancer (as long as they don't go over the calories). This is absolutely undisputable. And this reduces medical expenses, premature mortality and disability 

This is why these products are being developed ↑ - to reduce global burden of disease. 

Just because, you me or anyone else on this forum is not a target group for mock meats and vegan burgers, doesn't justify us saying that this is all crap.

It is a health promoting food for a large part of the population but since the other part is actively talking trash about it, even those who could benefit from it are going to ignore it and so the problems remain

Edited March 13, 2023 by Michael569

[Leo Gura]

On 3/13/2023 at 0:29 PM, Michael569 said:

This is why these products are being developed ↑ - to reduce global burden of disease.

I highly doubt THAT is why these products are developed. They are developed simply because people are willing to buy them and put them in their mouths. And meat has gotten a lot of bad press lately, so there is a huge market for alternatives. People are not thinking about health when they develop or eat these things.

It is highly debatable that this fake meat is healthier than a quality burger. But I suppose it reduces factory farming, so that is the main benefit as far as I can see.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Michael569]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I highly doubt THAT is why these products are developed. They are developed simply because people are willing to buy them and put them in their mouths. And meat has gotten a lot of bad press lately, so there is a huge market for alternatives.

Ofcourse - demand & supply , basic rule of economics. 

But more people are now buying fruits and vegetables than 30 years ago and more people buy gym memberships so it incentivises more gyms being built, doesn't mean that exercise is bad does it? 

If powerful corporations who have the budget to deliver this food, market it to masses and use their supply chain are not going to do it, who will? I don't think there is anything inherently bad about Mcdonalds serving plant burgers as long as people are willing to buy it. If it keeps people away from buying processed beef then that's good. 

How do you otherwise incentivise the low consciousness populus to even try to be healthier if all they here is "toxic toxic toxic"!!! everytime they even google something like Beyond Burger. 

These people need to be handheld across baby steps. They're not gonna go and start making lentil falafels with salads - that's just unattainable for them.  And I think people with such an influence and such as following and trust as you have should speak less in extremes and be more open to the occasional gray area

Dunno, maybe I'm talking shit. Open to being wrong about this but all I'm hearing is a lot of trashing from you guys that's not based on anything else than out of hand dismissal. Like you said longn time ago," sometimes there are diamonds to be found in the pile of shit. "

Edited March 13, 2023 by Michael569

[Leo Gura]

I would rather advise people to eat real food, not factory concoctions. That's all.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Sebiwert]

If you want to replace meat or eat less meat, try mushrooms. That's completely organic + low GHG emissions. They can be fried or grilled like meat and have a similar umami taste. With the right cooking skills, they are way better than meat anyway. Ultra healthy!

Just don't always use the magic ones, although maybe ...

 

[Twega]

@Bobby_2021

On 3/13/2023 at 9:04 AM, Bobby_2021 said:

https://youtu.be/CTJj6Gjw7YU

So yeah you would want to stay away from this horrible poison. Also, avoid seed oils and processed foods. 

 

 

If you're actually willing to look at the detailed science of Seed oils, then watch this:

 

Surprise, surprise: it's not what you've been told (the majority opinion is that they're horrible).

[LoneWonderer]

recent documentary on the subject.

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/14/2023 at 0:04 AM, Leo Gura said:

Of course these factory concoctions are not good

People don't realise how scary this is.

Imagine mixing n number of chemicals and the final mixture tasting like Apple/ orange/chicken / beef or literally any food that you ever ate. The fact that they can even achieve this is astounding. 

They can reach any configuration of taste, appearance & smell simply by mixing hundreds of chemicals together at just the right proportions and people are more than happy to take it in.

Think about it this way. Will you take it in if it didn't smell or taste like meat? 

It's still more or less the same thing but a different configurations of chemicals. 

On 3/14/2023 at 2:22 AM, Sebiwert said:

If you want to replace meat or eat less meat, try mushrooms. That's completely organic + low GHG emissions. They can be fried or grilled like meat and have a similar umami taste. With the right cooking skills, they are way better than meat anyway. Ultra healthy!

Just don't always use the magic ones, although maybe ...

I like mushrooms a lot. They give somewhat the same vibes as natural meat. 

17 hours ago, Twega said:

@Bobby_2021

If you're actually willing to look at the detailed science of Seed oils, then watch this:

Surprise, surprise: it's not what you've been told (the majority opinion is that they're horrible).

What's the final conclusion?

Seed oils good or bad?

On 3/13/2023 at 1:10 PM, Michael569 said:

not vegan myself so I have no personal agenda in saying this) 

This is not an admirable position to take as you make it out to be. You are eating healthy while advocating others to eat trash. You should go vegan first before asking others to go vegan. That's how you make it clear that you have no agenda. 

Bill Gates is not a vegan either, but he still wants others to go vegan because muh climate change. 

I can eat whatever I want and Gates will pay me for spreading veganism. He is subconsciously persuading others to go vegan. 

[Michael569]

8 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You are eating healthy while advocating others to eat trash. You should go vegan first before asking others to go vegan

That's a nice assumption based on zero background information. But since we sank to the level of punching below the waistline, I'll entertain the argument. 

Are you suggesting that people need to be vegan to enjoy vegan products like mock meats? 

Also, are you saying that these foods are nothing but trash and that nobody can benefit from them? Would you say eating beef burgers instead is better? 

So far you have not presented any argument for how this stuff is unhealthy. It seems to me that you might be a science denier since you labelled evidence as corrupted and best-to-ignore, which is what evidence deniers usually do. If I am wrong then the burden of your claim is to provide evidence that shows vegan burgers (or seed oils as a matter of fact) are unhealthy. That or not making claims as you did in your initial post. You have to prepare to be challenged and your response cannot be "because I said so"

Previously seed oils were the bad stuff but now @Twega even shared to you two videos that are actually deeply researched by a guy who clearly has no agenda and who does incredible amount of due diligence for his content. Did that help to persuade you on the topic of seed oils? Would you like us to share more content like this? From people who actually bother to investigate and don't just trash talk for the shits and giggles? 

You keep bringing up the word "chemicals" - when was the last time you checked the ingredients list on Beyond Burger? - I see no chemicals; there are just a bunch of starches, plant proteins, spices and some plant fats. How are any of those chemicals? I mean sure, we could use mushrooms, onions and tahini and make it even better but does that mean what currently is, should be considered trash? 

It is obviously you've never tried to make a plant patty at home to see how ridiculously easy that is (without chemicals!!).  What they do ain't that different, they just use more concentrates like purees, spices and plant oils for obvious economic reasons.  How is that any bad? What do you even mean by chemicals? Plant burgers are not loaded with freaking toluene and benzene if that's what you mean by chemicals. # 

But granted, some of them can be of shitty quality, it is a burden of the buyer to pick the right ones. Some manufacturers got lazy, we should not support those./ 

So back to the baseline - what is the argument for saying vegan burgers are bad and unhealthy (all things being equal)? 

Again, no personal attacks on your intelligence, on your background or on your education Bobby, just challenging your views and trying to open your mind to a perspective that vegan meats can, conditionally, be healthy, for some people, in some situations where total calories are accounted for and that they are not unhealthy for others.

Before we wrap up, let me give you my position on plant burgers (the higher quality ones like Beyond Meat) and tell me to what degree you disagree

1. Vegan burgers are conditionally healthy for people coming from a diet that includes beef burgers , many of which might be prediabetic, overweight and have increased risk of heart disease
2. Vegan Burgers are helpful for those who consume typical western diet and are not able to switch ton healthier foods nor lifestyles easily due to poor education, peer pressure or background 
3. Vegan Burgers have seed oils but that makes them healthier than beef burgers loaded with saturated fats (and real chemicals used for preservation such as nitrites) 
4. they are not necessary for a person who eats a healthy wholefood diet (omnivore or plant-based)  and there is probably no additional benefit if this person eats vegan burgers 
5. they can help poorly nutritionally educated ethical vegans get their protein & their calories & iron levels up and prevent problems like anaemia, protein deficiency and basic malnourishment 
6. they may help reduce the consumption of beef which has a massive global footprint
7. they are not loaded with chemicals, although a few manufacturers could do a better job by using for example beans or flax seeds rather than starches for thickening 
8. Eating vegan burgers opens up people to make other changes such as going for sugar-free drinks, sweet potato fries and low-sugar ketchup. Once you make one change, the next change comes with less resistance. 
9. Encouraging consumption of vegan burgers as a part of public health guidelines could, for a small amount of the population help drive down the risk of colorectal cancer and heart disease because it would lead to eating more fibre, less processed meat, less red meat and more salt. 

Thoughts? 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Michael569

[zurew]

On 2023. 03. 13. at 7:25 PM, Bobby_2021 said:

Delving into the nuances of studies can be done, but it's a waste of time since studies can be bought and sold these days.

But its better to watch a random low quality youtube video on a topic and immediately believe it , because it confirms your beliefs on the subject?

In other threads you sometimes use statistics and studies to make your point stronger,so its seems to me, that you are very selective about this epistemic process and you choose it when it suits you and abandon it or even trash it when it contradicts your beliefs about a subject.

On 2023. 03. 13. at 7:25 PM, Bobby_2021 said:

These hyper processed chemicals can have an impact on your system on a longer time span than any of those studies care to mention

How do you know that, without looking at studies?

On 2023. 03. 13. at 7:25 PM, Bobby_2021 said:

As a rule of thumb, it's better to stay away from heavily processed foods like seed oils, no matter whatever science or studies might say

You probably have never tried seed oil yourself, so what epistemic process you are choosing over studies to arrive at the conclusion that people should stay away from seed oil?

Edited March 15, 2023 by zurew

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

That's a nice assumption based on zero background information. But since we sank to the level of making riddiculous personal attacks, I'll entertain it. 

It was not a personal attack. It should rather be seen as an accusation of hypocrisy. You made a personal statement and gave an explanation for it, which I disagreed with. I get how you perceived it as an attack.

Saying that you are not a vegan isn't enough to prove that you don't have an agenda to promote veganism. Infact the major promoters of veganism (corporate overlords) are usually not vegan.

Imagine for a moment Bill Gates promoting veganism or vegan meat, and then you google his diet only to see that he gorge on McDonalds and beef burgers. This just do not sit well. Actions speak a lot more in this case.

Climate hypocrisy is real. You will be questioned on your choices as and when you reveal them voluntarily. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

Also, are you saying that these foods are nothing but trash and that nobody can benefit from them? Would you say eating beef burgers instead is better? 

At the end of the day, even beef burgers are also processed foods although not as much as vegan meat. Avoid processed foods altogether is what I would suggest.

If you can find specific niche of people with a particular profile of health who could benefit from vegan burgers, then go ahead. But I doubt whether this will be good for people at large.

And I haven't dealt with the nuances of complicated studies enough to give an opinion. 

I have "experts" in the pharma industry tell me to avoid seed oils and similarly processed foods. I am not up for an intricate discussion. I have outsourced my thinking to some other scientist in the industry. He has told me so much jargons like Epa, Dha, omega 3 to 6 ratios, which honestly I don't care, neither serve me to know.

All I want to know is if this thing is safe to put in my mouth. I am not going to grind through 20 research papers to get a yes or no on this. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

Vegan Burgers are helpful for those who consume typical western diet and are not able to switch ton healthier foods nor lifestyles easily due to poor education, peer pressure or background 

Of course I understand. Money, ethics, climate change are all valid reasons for going for plant meat.

Except for health reasons. A few studies saying that it's okay isn't simply enough. 

Although the climate change argument is weak to be honest. It's possible to grow beef with minimal impact to the climate. Most of the climate emissions are coming from 3rd world countries that has inefficient production of beef.

I talked about this on an earlier post. 

https://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g

Thinking that you are saving the planet by not eating beef might take attention and effort away from areas where it does actually matter. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

they may help reduce the consumption of beef which has a massive global footprint

Not true. Watch the video I linked above. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

Encouraging consumption of vegan burgers as a part of public health guidelines could, for a small amount of the population help drive down the risk of colorectal cancer and heart disease because it would lead to eating more fibre, less processed meat, less red meat and more salt. 

Sure maybe. But how would you know that it won't lead to a whole another slew of problems that normally associated with consuming processed foods? 

Our bodies are not designed to process, processed foods, while we have been eating meat for millions of years and our bodies are well adapted to it. 

And people don't make dietary choices after reading research papers and listening to scientists. 

I see Arnold Schwarzenegger promoting vegan meat while the same dude gorged on beef when he was the most healthy in his prime. I going to pay attention to his actions, not his words. Same with Bill Gates.

They way promote this thing is so forced & inorganic (ironically) that it's a huge red flag. 

You can say this is irrational fear, but I don't lose anything. If I am wrong I am happy to find that out after letting the scientists research on this for another 40 years. You would have plenty of real world data by that time instead of of a controlled lab studies being done with an agenda.

These start-up are being funded by billionaires with the state being in on it as well. Do you think they will happily report anything mildly suspicious popping up in their studies? 

And I am not actively urging anyone to follow any strict diet. I am urging people to ditch everything processed, including processed beef. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:56 PM, zurew said:

In other threads you sometimes use statistics and studies to make your point stronger,so its seems to me, that you are very selective about this epistemic process and you choose it when it suits you and abandon it or even trash it when it contradicts your beliefs about a subject.

And what happened after crunching the numbers? It's not like anyone is eager to change their minds after seeing rigorous research.

And it's mind bogglingly tedious and time consuming. I will rather state when I say and let other state what they say without any compulsion to back it up with sources. It's good if you do, but not necessary.

There is nothing to discuss here from a logical point of view. Studies simply present their findings. That's all. There is little thought processes involved. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:56 PM, zurew said:

How do you know that, without looking at studies?

I have experts who work in the industry who advice me.

It's not like people decide what to eat after looking at studies. 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:56 PM, zurew said:

You probably have never tried seed oil yourself, so what epistemic process you are choosing over studies to arrive at the conclusion that people should stay away from seed oil?

Because my stomach felt bad after eating them on a couple of occasions.

And don't complicate this stuff. You don't need an epistemic process to pick what to eat.

If it makes you feel any better, human bodies have adapted to eating real meat for millions of years while the same couldn't be said about processed foods. Even normal processed foods aren't healthy.

On 3/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Michael569 said:

You keep bringing up the word "chemicals" - when was the last time you checked the ingredients list on Beyond Burger? - I see no chemicals; there are just a bunch of starches, plant proteins, spices and some plant fats. How are any of those chemicals? I mean sure, we could use mushrooms, onions and tahini and make it even better but does that mean what currently is, should be considered trash? 

Corporations are not completely honest In disclosing the contents of their products. Plenty of sneaky manipulations into this. 

Wait for real world data. 

[Michael569]

On 16/03/2023 at 10:34 AM, Bobby_2021 said:

Saying that you are not a vegan isn't enough to prove that you don't have an agenda to promote veganism. Infact the major promoters of veganism (corporate overlords) are usually not vegan.

 I'm not gonna elaborate further on this point otherwise I may give away details of my billion-dollar vegan burger enterprise I'm building at the background of this forum and slowly looking to start selling you guys samples. 

As for the rest of the response, it would take us hours and hours to discuss each of them individually even on a debate so let's just agree to disagree. Thanks for the arguments tho, I'll watch the video you recommended. 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Michael569