Men Don’t Understand What’s Attractive About Men

[Emerald]

18 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Here's the thing, though - the goal is not to 'attract' women. It's to get with them. That's the point of talking about attraction to begin with. 

The ideologies may not be absolutely right, in that they may have counter-examples. But, they can be useful for the collective of men to understand what to do to attract women. And, by 'attract', I mean, get with. Feelings of attraction are pointless, honestly, if you're not getting with them. 

There is an agenda at play here. And that's how the ideology is chosen. 

To say that 'female attraction isn't parts-based, it's whole-based' isn't very useful. You can't do anything with that. You can only work on parts, not the whole. Because the whole is too much to mentally conceptualize of. 

In fact, let's do this - how would you go about proving this statement, that women are attracted to the whole and not the parts? How would you even define 'whole'? 

I can’t prove it to you. You’d have to be a woman experiencing attraction to a man to know what it’s like.

But as a man, the way to find a woman who wants to get with you is to generally develop yourself as a person and work through your issues. This will make you more attractive to more women because this enables you to emit your authenticity much more strongly.

This is like putting out a radio signal. The more you develop yourself, the stronger and purer that signal will be. And the women who resonate with that signal will pick it up more easily and be attracted to it.

And then, you have to be social and keep company with women who prefer the kind of man that you are. This requires a bit of self-knowledge of course and the courage to form social ties with women.

[Emerald]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The lamp illuminates everywhere except the spot on which it stands.

As a man, it's all too easy to project your sexual biases and desires onto women. That's the most common trap in the manosphere. Sexual craving utterly distorts the mind.

Yes exactly.

Men often tend to think about women’s sexuality as just being a pickier version of male sexuality because they project the mechanics of male sexuality onto us.

So, Manosphere guys project their worst fear that women are sizing them up (based off of objective qualities) like they are sizing women up (based off of objective qualities)… only with women being more picky and judging them more harshly based off of higher standards.

But women actually aren’t very picky… We are selective in our attractions… but we’re generally not picky.

The criteria we chose a man on is not typically objective or rational or meritocratic (though merit helps a man gain more mass appeal). It’s very emotional and intuitive and is a response to his overall vibration.

It’s like “Does the current of this man’s personality make my heart strings vibrate?”

That’s what the experience is like.

And we tend not to feel those feelings for most men. This is how women are selective. 

If I use myself as an example, I typically am only capable of being meaningfully attracted to one guy at a time. And I’d imagine that this is probably common for many women.

But the guy I’m attracted to might not be the most objectively attractive across any given field. So, he wouldn’t necessarily be the most objectively attractive in terms of looks, merit, status, wealth, charisma, etc. 

But as long as there weren’t any dealbreakers, I’d be attracted to him over men who are more objectively attractive because he’s the one whose personality current that I’m in resonance with.

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, Ulax said:

Men aren't just putting on a persona for women in my opinion.

Its for other guys a lot of the time. If guys acted authentically in a lot of circles they would likely be shunned or even unsafe.

The traumatisation during school is pretty harsh for a lot of guys growing up too, especially at schools lower down the socioeconomic ladder. Its pretty brutal the bullying that happens to a fair few of the kids who get identified as outcasts or different. Some of that trauma ends up staying with kids for life.

So, there is a lot of survival benefit to maintaining a macho persona.

People don't just put on personas for no reason.

And, on the matter of pickup, I think what some people don't take into account is how many guys use it as a means to learn serious social skills, hence using it as a means of therapy. 

Yes, this is what I’ve noticed too.

Really, a lot of men’s intense interest in women begins and end with the desire to fit the ideal Masculine image which requires men to show proof of female sexual validation.

And so, the focus on being attractive to women for many men is just focused on in order to keep himself safe from the ridicule of other men who will judge/shun/bully him if he’s not as successful with women as they think he should be.

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

This is actually pretty mindblowing. My entire life was spent trying to improve my parts e.g. muscles, looks, body language. But most of the girls I knew were attracted to wholes. I've never met a girl who rejected someone because their arms were too small. And yet me and most guys I know care so much about muscles. I just assumed girls cared about that stuff because guys were like that.

Improving those things are fine. It can be helpful because virtues will improve your overall vibe and will weed out dealbreakers.

Men who are more holistically developed have much more attractive vibes.

But the lion’s share of female attraction is based off of an intuitive attraction to a man as a whole being and whether or not that overall vibe creates a feeling of chemistry.

I suspect that it’s mostly Feminine bodily instinct unconsciously scanning hundreds of qualities in a man for signs of a match (genetically, psychologically, emotionally, life-style-wise, etc.) without the help of the woman’s conscious mind. 

And when there’s a match, then the body produces positive feelings and cravings to be close to that particular guy. And everything about him suddenly becomes magical even if he just looks like an average guy on paper.

[ValiantSalvatore]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Thank you! I’m glad you like my paintings. ?

And I had heard something similar to what you’d mentioned.

But it was moreso put in terms of women being viewed by men and women through T5 activation.

And men being viewed by men and women through T6 activation.

So, it was more around people generally seeing men more as whole people and women more as a collection of parts.

But my experience of attraction towards men is that I’m attracted to the whole person first. And then his parts become attractive only/mostly in relationship to the whole.

Until that holistic attraction arises, there’s a mostly platonic frame even if they possess traits that I can recognize as objectively attractive.

Like I can tell you what I find attractive in the ideal. But I rarely get attracted to men who look or act like that.

Yes, they are very beautiful I get goosebumps seeing them, also reminds me of Teal Swan's painting and how having beautiful surroundings feels healing. 

That is mostly incorrect, how he proceded was as far as I can recall the T6 activation was mostly by women evaluating faces more through this cognitive holsitic function, like seeing it's architecture and the "construction of beauty" more wholes in general than parts, while men relied on T5 when viewing faces mostly, so they are beign very objective and just their behaviour through rationalisation of what current facial expression X means. 

This is what I read from the book, so men mostly use T5 to evaluate faces which is responisble for social feedback and behavioural adjustment, as well as women use generally more T6, so they view others faces as more holistic generally seeing the "architecture & paintings" of the whole of beauty. INFJ'S, INTJ'S and ISFP's as well as even ESFJ's have high activations in these areas as far as I can recall also ISTP's. So it's a matter of choice I find with meditative training to use this more often as a man.

I find it tricky for example, I enjoy talking with women about dating issues, as it just invalidates a lot of fear and self-judgement, I revealed to this girl online after we had a pretty good connection that, I overreacted and felt sorry, and she legit defended me, and continued to chat with me, yet that is a dime in a dozen (in case the idiom is correct). 

What would you define as holisticially attractive about men? I can read all the science in the internet and biological tricks, yet it does not factor in diversity, and diversification and originallity, when it comes to online-dating for example. This is the only creative part etc. As well as just in person? If you can be very concrete that would help, also sometimes a womens perspective gives me more hope, than just talking to men.

I had a women wing for one day, yet she was not that great. I would have gone out more with her, yet I moved. Every women loved talking about dating, when you bring up concrete examples, so it's nice feedback and takes of the pressure at times. (As long as it get's not super feisty)

For instance I am out of my meditation session (right now), I sometimes get impulses just to approach a girl mid run, mid gym session when I am in a high holistic state -> joy, love, beauty, apprecation etc. and I am pretty sure it would work initially. Then on a day to day basis I feel a lot of frustration and anger, because that is also part of me, you know? 

The point is for example I enjoy eating and living healthy, I might indulge in something occasionally, yet I dislike it that overweight women in areas, where there is an extremely high bodycentric value, I am very rigid about this also, as I get a lot of holism out of digesting this frustration. 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Gesundheit2]

@Emerald I don't think part vs. whole is the best way to frame it. "Whole" is really just an alternative way of saying emotions or "how I feel about a person", so it's more of an indicator of how women tend to view reality, which is mainly through their emotions. So it's how you feel about your potential partner that matters. So if it's just that, or mostly it. Then the way to win your heart is to make you feel good/safe but also excited in some kind of way. Now, the question is how to make a woman feel that way towards me? And you're on with the mic.

[mr_engineer]

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

I can’t prove it to you. You’d have to be a woman experiencing attraction to a man to know what it’s like.

I was hoping you'd try, so you'd understand the challenge we face with integrating what you're saying. 

I know you can't prove it to me. I was telling you to do it anyways, so you'd tell me the practical problem that comes up when you try. 

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

But as a man, the way to find a woman who wants to get with you is to generally develop yourself as a person and work through your issues. This will make you more attractive to more women because this enables you to emit your authenticity much more strongly.

First of all, there is an assumption that the man in question has issues. 

Secondly, if this is true, wouldn't being authentic hinder your attractiveness to women? 

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

This is like putting out a radio signal. The more you develop yourself, the stronger and purer that signal will be. And the women who resonate with that signal will pick it up more easily and be attracted to it.

If you have to develop yourself all alone, what's the point of having a woman?! If women are going to abandon you anyways. 

I think that if I do this for women, I will become demotivated very fast. Because there will always be some problem. Nobody is perfect. 

And, I don't want to pander to women who are critical of me. Cuz that's pointless. 

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

And then, you have to be social and keep company with women who prefer the kind of man that you are. This requires a bit of self-knowledge of course and the courage to form social ties with women.

How do you do that? 

[spiritual memes]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Men who are more holistically developed have much more attractive vibes.

How do you holistically develop yourself?

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

How do you holistically develop yourself?

Seek to become the best version of yourself through developing your natural aptitudes, cultivating virtues, and healing from trauma.

Basically, enable yourself to mature and individuate into your most exalted intonation.

Think about yourself as a sunflower seed at the outset. That means that you can never grow into a geranium or daffodil or daisy. You can only develop into a sunflower.

Then, you can either grow your sunflower into a puny little sunflower that never reaches its full potential. Or you can give yourself everything you need to grow into the most exalted version of a sunflower that you can be.

So, in relation to this analogy, the first element is self-acceptance and coming to know and celebrate your own nature as something unique from all other natures.

You must learn to appreciate your unique personality signature even as it diverges from the societally understood ideals of beauty and desirability. 

This means the sunflower must never envy the rose. It must prefer being the sunflower and really lean into its own magic.

And from there, you work to develop that unique nature into its most exalted and realized version through whichever kind of self-alchemy works the best for your nature.

This requires the cultivation of various aptitudes and virtues that are specific to your nature. And it also requires an ever deepening relationship to yourself and your nature.

[spiritual memes]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Seek to become the best version of yourself through developing your natural aptitudes, cultivating virtues, and healing from trauma.

Basically, enable yourself to mature and individuate into your most exalted intonation.

Think about yourself as a sunflower seed at the outset. That means that you can never grow into a geranium or daffodil or daisy. You can only develop into a sunflower.

Then, you can either grow your sunflower into a puny little sunflower that never reaches its full potential. Or you can give yourself everything you need to grow into the most exalted version of a sunflower that you can be.

So, in relation to this analogy, the first element is self-acceptance and coming to know and celebrate your own nature as something unique from all other natures.

You must learn to appreciate your unique personality signature even as it diverges from the societally understood ideals of beauty and desirability. 

This means the sunflower must never envy the rose. It must prefer being the sunflower and really lean into its own magic.

And from there, you work to develop that unique nature into its most exalted and realized version through whichever kind of self-alchemy works the best for your nature.

This requires the cultivation of various aptitudes and virtues that are specific to your nature. And it also requires an ever deepening relationship to yourself and your nature.

I see. How do you know what your nature is? And what do you do if your nature goes against your survival? 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

I see. How do you know what your nature is? And what do you do if your nature goes against your survival? 

You can angle your nature to serve your survival no matter what it is.

But you find out your nature by exploring yourself and getting to know yourself better.

Try lots of things.

Find personally models to understand yourself (like Enneagram, MBTI, OCEAN)

Get clear on your values and what your preferences are.

Get to know yourself the same way you’d get to know anyone else.

[spiritual memes]

14 hours ago, Emerald said:

You can angle your nature to serve your survival no matter what it is.

But you find out your nature by exploring yourself and getting to know yourself better.

Try lots of things.

Find personally models to understand yourself (like Enneagram, MBTI, OCEAN)

Get clear on your values and what your preferences are.

Get to know yourself the same way you’d get to know anyone else.

Ok i see. One issue I have is that my values and preferences change vastly over time as does my personality. I used to be INTP and extremely scientific, atheistic and materialistic but all of that has changed. My nature seems to be heavily influenced by external things that happen to me. Is that still my nature?

[Arcangelo]

On 3/11/2023 at 0:54 AM, Emerald said:

Many men think they have dating problems or women problems or Masculinity problems.

But they don’t have any of these problems. They have Shame problems that disguise themselves as problems with dating, women, and Masculinity.

And they try to throw pick up at it. Or they try to self-improve in other ways. They try to fit their image of the ideal man.

And it turns into a constant attempt to fix and become perfectly Masculine to absolve themselves of feelings of Shame.

And culture tells men that being admired by men and desired by women will absolve them of that deep Shame and validate their existence.

And so, they seek to become the ideal Masculine image in their mind. And they seek the approval and validation of women.

They view women as holding the key to their redemption and existential validity.

And when a man isn’t as successful with women as he feels he needs to be in order to be valid, all of those feelings of internal Shame turn to outward bitterness and blame.

And women are scapegoated as the sole impediment to him resolving his own Shame. 

 

[Arcangelo]

28 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

They view women as holding the key to their redemption and existential validity.

It must have to do with the survival of humanity.

@Emerald

[The0Self]

This definitely happens. It goes away for a man when said man just pays attention.

[Noahsteelers34]

my ex girlfriend would tell me "your the most masculine when your not trying to be"

[Emerald]

36 minutes ago, Noahsteelers34 said:

my ex girlfriend would tell me "your the most masculine when your not trying to be"

It’s always that way.

The rule is… if you’re trying to be Masculine, you’re failing.

Masculinity is a very subtle and graceful quality that shines through in the small gestures a man makes as he moves and speaks.

[Arcangelo]

On 3/15/2023 at 0:10 AM, Arcangelo said:

It must have to do with the survival of humanity.

@Emerald

@Emerald

[Gesundheit2]

5 hours ago, Noahsteelers34 said:

my ex girlfriend would tell me "your the most masculine when your not trying to be"

She means attractive, not necessarily masculine. Masculinity is about illusions and appearances, which are not necessarily true/truth.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Gesundheit2