Men Don’t Understand What’s Attractive About Men

[StarStruck]

11 minutes ago, spiritual memes said:

Maybe not in striking but in grappling they are definitely useful. I do bjj and the buff guys are much harder to grapple with even if they aren't that skilled. They just grab hold of you and its hard to escape. That being said, if they are unskilled, then their strength can be worked around with skill and agility.

In a street fight grappling is useless. People can bite, go for the groin or your eyes. 

[spiritual memes]

1 minute ago, StarStruck said:

In a street fight grappling is useless. People can bite, go for the groin or your eyes. 

But so can the grappler. All dirty tricks can be done more effectively by the grappler when they have the superior position. Grappling is absolutely not useless. If you ever get into a fight with a musclehead, he's gonna try to grab you and you'd better know how to grapple.

 

[NoSelfSelf]

@StarStruck Only if its 1v5 if its 1v1 the one that knows grappling wins its not even funny...

[StarStruck]

@spiritual memes I have never seen people grappling in public. It is usually brawls on their feet. Have you?

[spiritual memes]

1 minute ago, StarStruck said:

@spiritual memes I have never seen people grappling in public. It is usually brawls on their feet. Have you?

yeah I actually saw one a few weeks ago where they grabbed each other and it went to the ground.  Apparently most street fights go to the ground.

[StarStruck]

23 minutes ago, spiritual memes said:

yeah I actually saw one a few weeks ago where they grabbed each other and it went to the ground.  Apparently most street fights go to the ground.

If the one is a good striker the fight is usually over in no time. Especially if the one is a good striker and the other one is not knowing what he is doing. Some dudes never fought and they actually think they can fight here in Europe.

[something_else]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

In a street fight grappling is useless. People can bite, go for the groin or your eyes. 

It kinda depends on the grappling. A lot of positions taught in BJJ are only effective because they assume the opponent can’t strike, but that doesn’t mean all techniques are useless. If you can get someone in mount in a street fight they’re pretty fucked for example.

The biggest risk is someone knowing how to stop you taking them to the ground really, like a wrestler or something, or multiple opponents.

A lot of fights end up in a scramble or on the ground. Some stats put it at like 85-90%. That’s a high enough percentage I’d take BJJ over a striking martial art because something like boxing is pretty unhelpful on the ground. Also I don’t like the idea of frequently being bashed in the head when training or smashing the fuck out of my hands, both of which I need to make a living.

Grappling also gives you the tools to end a fight without seriously injuring someone which is advantageous to avoid being prosecuted. If you punch someone out cold they might die when their head hits the curb. Happened to a dude outside my flat.

[spiritual memes]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

If the one is a good striker the fight is usually over in no time. Especially if the one is a good striker and the other one is not knowing what he is doing. Some dudes never fought and they actually think they can fight here in Europe.

True. Striking and grappling fundamentals are super important in street fights. But even if you are a good striker you still need takedown defence just in case.

Anyhow, I think this discussion has gotten off topic 

[Basman]

I agree that women are on average are more attracted to lean athletic bodies over "the rock" tier muscles. It's more about definition, especially in the upper body (broad shoulders) and fat percentage. That is a much more realistically obtainable physique for the average guy compared to something like the Athlean X "super hero" physique.

Also, in self defence grappling can be effective if going up against a single opponent but has the issue of leaving you open to attack from others. It's generally always better to escape, so techniques that give you an opening to escape are the best IMO. When I practiced Wing Tsun many years ago, there where certain techniques that allowed you to escape a grab and push your opponent away in one motion.

[Roy]

17 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Every time I see a buffed dude I always get a weird feeling. I’m thinking like “what is the purpose of those muscles?” Because in a fight they are useless.

Being strong and athletic certainly helps your chances and deters a lot of potential fights but yeah, when you're on the street all bets are off. No point in giving respect or expecting it. Someone is going to the hospital or leaving in an oversized ziplock bag. I don't know about you but I'm gonna do my best to make DAMN sure it's not me.

People can play tough guy all they like but a knife or a gun doesn't discriminate and does the same damage. Not to mention it's only a matter of time before you run into somebody who is in a bad enough mood to pull a weapon out.

People are so wound up and crazy these days. It's best to just not argue with strangers and walk away. There are plenty of videos of people road raging and shooting up cars because of getting cut off. No thanks, not worth the energy.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Roy

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

They definitely have this weird notion of what masculine means, that is invented by them and is very narcissistic and destructive, detached from nature, and from their true selves, and from the divine masculine who is a compassionate giver and a protector of the feminine, not its enemy and abuser. And it's almost impossible to convince many of them that they are not attractive as they believe, that their fake presentation of power is unnecessary, and how bad and pathetic it looks in our eyes, and how it feels and how painful it's to co-exist with people who are under this demonic possession or a spell. I really experince it as a demonic possession on a collective level.

 

It is quite frustrating because women don’t get listened to about what we find attractive about men when many of us are very well aware.

The notion is that we just say things that we like on paper but don’t actually respond to those qualities.

But this is a total mis-framing of the nature of female sexuality because women aren’t as attracted to parts and qualities as much as we are attracted to the man as a whole person… and as greater than the sum of his parts.

Usually when women are attracted to a part of a man, it’s because it is a part within the greater whole of his personality.

And because we resonate with the whole man, we like the part. Not the other way around.

And a man with the exact same qualities (or better) may not excite any interest at all in a given woman.

So, women are primarily attracted to wholes. And men (in contrast) are primarily being attracted to parts.

But men think women are attracted to parts like they are… and so they try to idealize themselves as a collection of positive parts that fit their assumptions about the ideal Masculine.

This projects the part-centric mechanics of male sexuality onto female sexuality.

And it creates this sense that women are just a pickier version of men, when the mechanics are totally different in reality.

But I don’t really see the caricature of Masculinity as demonic. It’s really clear it comes from vulnerable parts. And if I’m in a non-threatened state, I can have compassion.

But on the level of lived experience and practical concerns, I see it as irksome and unattractive at best, and politically and physically dangerous at worst. There’s a wide spectrum.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Emerald

[ValiantSalvatore]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, women are primarily attracted to wholes. And men (in contrast) are primarily being attracted to parts.

As an MBTI enthusiasts, I dunno if you read the neuroscience where they legit took measures with an EEG, women regardless of each type evaluate faces based on T6 activations which is a holistic part of the brain, men use T5, which is a non-holistic part of the brain that adapts to social expectations, which creates a lot of distortion. When I notice this and as an INFJ you have a high activation in T6 you just see sort of the "construction of beauty", and it's very flattering for women, to be this attentive and see them as a whole. Based on this insight. I can recommend the book, for "non-statistical" and actually measured science. He explains this also in the book. 

I checked your paintings, also on insta  they are very beautiful. 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[mr_engineer]

Here's the thing, though - the goal is not to 'attract' women. It's to get with them. That's the point of talking about attraction to begin with. 

The ideologies may not be absolutely right, in that they may have counter-examples. But, they can be useful for the collective of men to understand what to do to attract women. And, by 'attract', I mean, get with. Feelings of attraction are pointless, honestly, if you're not getting with them. 

There is an agenda at play here. And that's how the ideology is chosen. 

To say that 'female attraction isn't parts-based, it's whole-based' isn't very useful. You can't do anything with that. You can only work on parts, not the whole. Because the whole is too much to mentally conceptualize of. 

In fact, let's do this - how would you go about proving this statement, that women are attracted to the whole and not the parts? How would you even define 'whole'? 

[Leo Gura]

The lamp illuminates everywhere except the spot on which it stands.

As a man, it's all too easy to project your sexual biases and desires onto women. That's the most common trap in the manosphere. Sexual craving utterly distorts the mind.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[SonataAllegro]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The lamp illuminates everywhere except the spot on which it stands.

As a man, it's all too easy to project your sexual biases and desires onto women. That's the most common trap in the manosphere. Sexual craving utterly distorts the mind.

Could you give an example of a time you switched to a healthy frame from an unhealthy one mid conversion? Obv it’s happening all the time but I’m curious what the root realization is that creates the switch, ie what’s the “substance” of that kind of frame shift in metaphysical terms

[Ulax]

Men aren't just putting on a persona for women in my opinion.

Its for other guys a lot of the time. If guys acted authentically in a lot of circles they would likely be shunned or even unsafe.

The traumatisation during school is pretty harsh for a lot of guys growing up too, especially at schools lower down the socioeconomic ladder. Its pretty brutal the bullying that happens to a fair few of the kids who get identified as outcasts or different. Some of that trauma ends up staying with kids for life.

So, there is a lot of survival benefit to maintaining a macho persona.

People don't just put on personas for no reason.

And, on the matter of pickup, I think what some people don't take into account is how many guys use it as a means to learn serious social skills, hence using it as a means of therapy. 

[spiritual memes]

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

It is quite frustrating because women don’t get listened to about what we find attractive about men when many of us are very well aware.

The notion is that we just say things that we like on paper but don’t actually respond to those qualities.

But this is a total mis-framing of the nature of female sexuality because women aren’t as attracted to parts and qualities as much as we are attracted to the man as a whole person… and as greater than the sum of his parts.

Usually when women are attracted to a part of a man, it’s because it is a part within the greater whole of his personality.

And because we resonate with the whole man, we like the part. Not the other way around.

And a man with the exact same qualities (or better) may not excite any interest at all in a given woman.

So, women are primarily attracted to wholes. And men (in contrast) are primarily being attracted to parts.

But men think women are attracted to parts like they are… and so they try to idealize themselves as a collection of positive parts that fit their assumptions about the ideal Masculine.

This projects the part-centric mechanics of male sexuality onto female sexuality.

And it creates this sense that women are just a pickier version of men, when the mechanics are totally different in reality.

But I don’t really see the caricature of Masculinity as demonic. It’s really clear it comes from vulnerable parts. And if I’m in a non-threatened state, I can have compassion.

But on the level of lived experience and practical concerns, I see it as irksome and unattractive at best, and politically and physically dangerous at worst. There’s a wide spectrum.

This is actually pretty mindblowing. My entire life was spent trying to improve my parts e.g. muscles, looks, body language. But most of the girls I knew were attracted to wholes. I've never met a girl who rejected someone because their arms were too small. And yet me and most guys I know care so much about muscles. I just assumed girls cared about that stuff because guys were like that.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, SonataAllegro said:

Could you give an example of a time you switched to a healthy frame from an unhealthy one mid conversion?

I don't know what that means or what that has to do with what I said.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[SonataAllegro]

What I’m asking is about how your perception of social situations and people shifts from a biased lens clouded by sexual desire to a more truthful, selfless one, in the context of sexuality. What is it that shifts, how do you create the shift, how unbiased can you become in your perception of attractive people, and do you have an example of times you’ve made that shift yourself?

Edit: I know your answers to those questions in general spiritual terms but I’m talking just about sexuality here

 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know what that me or what that has to do with what I said.

Edited March 13, 2023 by SonataAllegro

[Emerald]

18 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

As an MBTI enthusiasts, I dunno if you read the neuroscience where they legit took measures with an EEG, women regardless of each type evaluate faces based on T6 activations which is a holistic part of the brain, men use T5, which is a non-holistic part of the brain that adapts to social expectations, which creates a lot of distortion. When I notice this and as an INFJ you have a high activation in T6 you just see sort of the "construction of beauty", and it's very flattering for women, to be this attentive and see them as a whole. Based on this insight. I can recommend the book, for "non-statistical" and actually measured science. He explains this also in the book. 

I checked your paintings, also on insta  they are very beautiful. 

 

Thank you! I’m glad you like my paintings. ?

And I had heard something similar to what you’d mentioned.

But it was moreso put in terms of women being viewed by men and women through T5 activation.

And men being viewed by men and women through T6 activation.

So, it was more around people generally seeing men more as whole people and women more as a collection of parts.

But my experience of attraction towards men is that I’m attracted to the whole person first. And then his parts become attractive only/mostly in relationship to the whole.

Until that holistic attraction arises, there’s a mostly platonic frame even if they possess traits that I can recognize as objectively attractive.

Like I can tell you what I find attractive in the ideal. But I rarely get attracted to men who look or act like that.