Men Don’t Understand What’s Attractive About Men

[Emerald]

Ever since I was a little girl, I noticed that boys/men have a very different idea of what makes men attractive compared to what women actually find attractive about men.

One example that I noticed way back then, is that many boys/men tend to think about having big muscles as the ideal male body type.

But most women (according to surveys) tend to find men attractive who have a body type that’s strong and lean where the muscles aren’t super huge.

(That’s just when women are asked in a survey though. Actual attraction is much more nuanced than that.)

But that’s just one example… and a physical one at that.

There tends to be some common beliefs among men about men’s attractiveness physically and personality-wise.

And this creates a desire to match up to the “ideal” male image that men believe is attractive. And the desire to emulate that image in terms of looks and personality often acts as a spoiler to their natural attractiveness in the eyes of women.

Through a woman’s eyes, it looks like a guy covering over and interrupting his own natural Masculinity with a mask of his internal image of the ideal Masculine.

It’s a man who doubts his Masculinity and thus feels he needs to pretend to be a man.

Here’s a video that talks about this phenomenon in depth…

 

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

It would be nice if this would be digestable in bullet points etc. It's a bit tedious having to watch the whole thing, I don't think it has any depth to be very frank. 

[Emerald]

17 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

It would be nice if this would be digestable in bullet points etc. It's a bit tedious having to watch the whole thing, I don't think it has any depth to be very frank. 

How do you know it doesn’t have any depth if you haven’t watched it?

I posted it 30 minutes ago, and you replied 17 minutes ago… and it’s a 1.5 hour video 

[LukeZ]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

it looks like a guy covering over and interrupting his own natural Masculinity with a mask of his internal image of the ideal Masculine.

This part here reminds me of masculine psychology speaker, David Tian, and his thesis when it comes to men attempting to match up with ideas of the ideal masculine image. His first and second episodes lay down how many of the tips online don't work due to deeper, unconscious issues. Usually because a common issue is that men will attempt to use them to cope with deeper toxic shame from childhood as they build up a "high value" image of themselves.

IFS therapy is important to and informs a lot of Tian's message. He says that protector parts will take on the role of using these dating tips, which further represses deeper insecurities and creates a "false self" as a result. I've began to notice this process happening in myself after taking in advice and beliefs from online sources (especially from pick up or game content. I believe I've seen much of it on this forum). Instead, there are parts of you that are say, naturally playful or confident, that just haven't had the space to express themselves due to insecurities and shame. The surface level advice only creates more of a reliance on these tips. 

I think a lot of this grapples with the language you may hear relating to "dating value" or "high quality man", which I think sometimes mingles with a persons sense of innate value or sense of worth on the whole. This video I believe is also important to his thesis/message. 

I haven't watched the video you shared yet so please forgive me for that haha. Perhaps there are some parallels. I would like to know more about what you think too.

Edited March 11, 2023 by LukeZ

[StarStruck]

@LukeZ Every time I see a buffed dude I always get a weird feeling. I’m thinking like “what is the purpose of those muscles?” Because in a fight they are useless. Only lean muscles are useful in a fight. Most girls don’t like buffed up muscles either. So their motivation is not external but internal. I talked to several body builders and this is what I discovered: their hobby is build upon pride, vanity and showmanship. I didn’t delve deeper but I did feel some shame on some level. This one buffed guy was talking about showing his muscles on a body building competition with a child like desire. He couldn’t explain to me what his real motivation was. 

[Emerald]

45 minutes ago, LukeZ said:

This part here reminds me of masculine psychology speaker, David Tian, and his thesis when it comes to men attempting to match up with ideas of the ideal masculine image. His first and second episodes lay down how many of the tips online don't work due to deeper, unconscious issues. Usually because a common issue is that men will attempt to use them to cope with deeper toxic shame from childhood as they build up a "high value" image of themselves.

IFS therapy is important to and informs a lot of Tian's message. He says that protector parts will take on the role of using these dating tips, which further represses deeper insecurities and creates a "false self" as a result. I've began to notice this process happening in myself after taking in advice and beliefs from online sources (especially from pick up or game content. I believe I've seen much of it on this forum). Instead, there are parts of you that are say, naturally playful or confident, that just haven't had the space to express themselves due to insecurities and shame. The surface level advice only creates more of a reliance on these tips. 

I think a lot of this grapples with the language you may hear relating to "dating value" or "high quality man", which I think sometimes mingles with a persons sense of innate value or sense of worth on the whole. This video I believe is also important to his thesis/message. 

I haven't watched the video you shared yet so please forgive me for that haha. Perhaps there are some parallels. I would like to know more about what you think too.

Yes! All of this is exactly right.

Many men think they have dating problems or women problems or Masculinity problems.

But they don’t have any of these problems. They have Shame problems that disguise themselves as problems with dating, women, and Masculinity.

And they try to throw pick up at it. Or they try to self-improve in other ways. They try to fit their image of the ideal man.

And it turns into a constant attempt to fix and become perfectly Masculine to absolve themselves of feelings of Shame.

And culture tells men that being admired by men and desired by women will absolve them of that deep Shame and validate their existence.

And so, they seek to become the ideal Masculine image in their mind. And they seek the approval and validation of women.

They view women as holding the key to their redemption and existential validity.

And when a man isn’t as successful with women as he feels he needs to be in order to be valid, all of those feelings of internal Shame turn to outward bitterness and blame.

And women are scapegoated as the sole impediment to him resolving his own Shame. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Emerald

[StarStruck]

@Emerald both men and females need self acceptance. Don’t try to make this a SJW thing. 

A lot of problems does disappear when one combines self acceptance in conjunction with self improvement.

Self improvement without self acceptance is abuse most of the time.

Edited March 11, 2023 by StarStruck

[Gesundheit2]

That's normie advice. I can accept it and see its validity, but I cannot practice it because I am not a normie. I am a weirdo. And that's not a bad thing. It just means I am special and need special advice. I don't want an average normie girl. I want a wierdo, just like me.

[ValiantSalvatore]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

How do you know it doesn’t have any depth if you haven’t watched it?

I posted it 30 minutes ago, and you replied 17 minutes ago… and it’s a 1.5 hour video 

I generally watch every thing at 2x if it's not highly complex. I skimmed through parts, for me this is heavy SD Green vulnerability talk, without much sustenance. 

Obviously, he is correct and what these guys report mostly is true. Still even their perception creates a lot of pressure. 

Over focusing on drama, not considering how biology plays itself out, you can't outwit evolution. Just taking a lense of group systems and internal group dynamics, made for somewhat smart YouTube consumers. Wit and complexity are part of evolution. 

It would be more interesting if this would be holistic and he actually talks about how the patriarchy was created, instead of making it a buzz word and meming with communism. 

Just stating everyone is traumatized and we are all broken and unfixed, seems to me like a current marketing fad for lazy men&women leftist grifters. The last Psychologist I've had was the first one without a psychology degree and extremely pedantic everything is trauma, that showed me something. First two psychologists with degrees and more cognitive strength were more willing to not dramatize and tell everyone you are traumatized. Embracing life can be more important than to overfocus on trauma, and giving basic techniques I can do at home and find better psychologist who have a stronger psychlogical framework to work it, instead of beign "licensced grifter" in some sense, it did not feel good and I am quiet willing as well as have worked on this issues of shame for years with much success, mostly without psychologists. As a few have very advanced and high-leverage techniques for more minor trauma. 

Many of the men are highly feminine in energy, which I don't have anymore that much at Tier2, besides when I venture into earlier stages. 

I don't like the guy as he seriously takes a lot of takes with very nerdy and vulnerable men. Which is not really a majority many would agree, the idea that nobody knows what a patriarchy is and creating room for vulnerability. 

There is just a stating of the problem nothing concrete of: 

• How to be masculine without being a patriarchy
• How to be vulnerable and still get women 
• How to be complex and sensetive (which I am, does it get me women I dunno)
• The "real reason" most men train is to become a better version and human of themselves. Most are not like Tate these are outliers. 
• No data at all just testimonials in some sense
• It's not helpful advice to be yourself, it's like a feel good message, some need to explore themselves with techniques, to be a better version of themselves and to improve gives a better frame, authenticity is hard, that even goes for women
• I don't think he realizes how superficial the world is and that many even he will choose based on hypergamy standards
• Couples outside of this norm are rare
• It leaves you with the same problem, how to be masculine without being toxic. 
• Some toxicity is even authentic, and part of that authentic you. Your shadow etc. is part of you anything else is denial and unconscious.
• Barely any talk about spiritual men and spirituality as a masculine concept and principle, when this is a High-Leverage-Nische point (many women like that I am into this stuff)

I dunno feels lame watching the video knowing the answers mostly, it's not very lean and functional to listen to neither very holistic. Mostly good vibes and good memes, I do like that. 

I dunno for me it misses even more stuff. That is group dynamically oriented, also it's only U.S people? So I dunno.

Edited March 11, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

I have a vulnerability authentic profile, rated with super high quality pictures and most women still select the "gym bot", status and sexy body, adventure and social proof.

Bumble now has speed dating that is the only way, how I can meet someone in a high-paced environment under more fair, none pre-selective conditions. 

There is no end to some power hierarchy be it patriarchy as well as matriarchal ( check trad. Jewish families, or be raised in a pure feminine household etc.). Be it hierachical as well as in a network. 

He does also not talk about attraction as a skillset, being charming and playful, authentic etc. It's a character skill to be developed and there can be how to's etc. It's like a discrimination based on the idea that we are all equal. We are not stating the obvious which is a construct aware quality, to point out the elephan in the room. I like it that he has a more honest approach. I wonder if he approached any women in his life though and just riffs of societies notion of patriarchy which is very real and women also partake and support patriarchal men. 

Why are they not choosing more complex and sensetive guys who work through their issues? As well as someone working on his vision? It's like 1 in 10000 women are approx. Like this. 

Why not ditch the gucci bag and dolce and cabana and go for someone more complex and sensetive? If I consider how much power women have nowadays I wish they would use it better to seek such men. Yet these men are not getting laid! Besides a few. 

Going out and approaching, being masculine and letting your vulnerable self get rejecting should be!!!!! Common dating advice, yet you are shamed from the leftist to approach subtley. There is no!! Single authentic dating advice who tells you approach and be you! Fuck the outcome, be a better version of yourself.

The masculine grows also through challenge and training ones body feels great and his healthy and fit and should!!! Be part of every man's life it can even be trauma work!! (Check the body keeps the score as a book I bet you know it also)

The connection of art & Beauty is missing in society. It's even fun to develop strategies for dating. What is fake about it? 

Toxic masculinity exists, I've seen it and been powerless because of it. I legit feel most feminists nowadays empower the patriarchy, instead of encouraging men to get into femininity and masculinity. 

Most young women take the hot gym stud as he is more masculine and most likely has some evolutionary advantage, besides when he approaches. You can't take biology fully out of the equation, yet over focusing on it creates a black and red pill ideaology. 

For me it's a connection to consciousness and even when a bit primitive gives more access to the feminine. Otherwise you'd heavily select intelligence as a criterion of a partner which is nice, yet it's also very superficial and I've been there. Dating doctors and gifted women. This is also biology at play... want it and or not. 

It feels in a sense very homogenous and not heterogenous in it's ideas to be masculine mostly running on empathy, vulnerability and authenticity dismissing the rise of misunderstanding of Tier2 SD Yellow and the dismissal of that leaves a "orange - green" battlefield with the underbelly. 

It's nothing new and I feel it only addresses a tiny portion of the problem.

I dunno I don't like sanguine-phlegmatics at times. Maybe I am off and judgemental I just don't find it complex I would go there for the vibes etc. I really do not like it reminds me of black friends who play video games the whole day and watch netflix and forgett the world outside is very real. Yes, even trauma and I started early with this...

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

All in all it's quiet a fair of a video, it does not teach anything I find that is not very obvious and just supports the hypergamy idea of equality at all planes and parity at all levels and equal. Like we are all balanced and find each others counterpart, I don't think life works that way. 

We can hold relative power in 10000th different dimension based on different criterions, it's just a polticial opinion expressed as a way to help people. 

What else do you recommend to do? Just do shadow work and never approach a women? How about some support for consensual approaches from leftist, instead of just attacking people who seriously care? I've seen this first-hand, but no no every masculine power is a threat, when he himselfs even fears it, and that fear is not wise? I wonder at times. When I went out with lefties it was pretty nice and they enjoyed me approaching. 

It should be framed as a learning experience when you are 21+ years old to go out and meet and approach women. Especially when you consider if it's a bit more normalized, you might even seen people holding hands again! That would be a shocker.
 

This is an arbitary example, yet it's very nice this is just missing as an encouragement, I wish I had something like this younger.  Even just beign complimentary, that even shows a small level of vulnerabillity, and this is toxic? and Pua? 

Edited March 11, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Jannes]

Its the same with some girls. The amount of make up they put on and the way they pose in photos it’s like they hide their soul. 

[HMD]

7 hours ago, Emerald said:

it looks like a guy covering over and interrupting his own natural Masculinity with a mask of his internal image of the ideal Masculine.

But don't we need ideals to actualize ourselves? Don't we need something to look up to? The "natural Masculine" varies from person to person. If a guy is at stage red on SD, for him the masculine would be something tyrannical and manipulative and so on. So, It's not exactly easy for many to understand and be aware of what exactly masculinity is, and in that situation, ideals serve a great purpose. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by HMD

[Bobby_2021]

The challenge of dating is to gauge the quality of a partner within a few seconds of exposure to that individual.

Huge muscles are unnatural signals steroid use or high maintenance, none of which are desirable. A lean muscular body indicates that the man works out and takes care of himself. If he is fat, then that may be a sign that he doesn't take care of himself, and there is a chance that the women is turned off by that. For the same reason, men get turned off by fat women.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, HMD said:

But don't we need ideals to actualize ourselves? Don't we need something to look up to? The "natural Masculine" varies from person to person. If a guy is at stage red on SD, for him the masculine would be something tyrannical and manipulative and so on. So, It's not exactly easy for many to understand and be aware of what exactly masculinity is, and in that situation, ideals serve a great purpose. 

 

You don’t actualize yourself by pretending to be the ideal Masculine image.

Actualization comes from the inside. You can only develop what is already there.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Jannes said:

Its the same with some girls. The amount of make up they put on and the way they pose in photos it’s like they hide their soul. 

There are certainly women with self-esteem issues. And they can manifest as excessive make-up.

But women, as a whole, are pretty aware that there are huge problems with trying to fit some prescription of the ideal Feminine... even if they are wearing lots of make up for self-esteem reasons.

Women as a whole are generally very leery about pressures to fit traditional gender norms because of women’s lib and because a woman loses a lot more than she wins if she succeeds at fitting to those norms.

But men as a whole, haven’t had a men’s lib and many have the illusion that fitting the image of the ideal Masculine is what will validate their lives. 

[Emrie]

That was an amazing video, thank you Emerald for sharing it. Instantly subscribed to the guy, looks like he makes a lot of great content.

I am really glad to hear him talk about this stuff and I agree on all fronts. Once again, the patriarchy harms us all, and I really loved that he talked about the societal changes that do affect even what makes someone attractive to others.

And I think it ties back to what Leo said in his How to Get Laid series, ultimately it's about being yourself, but you have to learn to be yourself, and that can be hard especially since we're groomed to be lonely and emotionally maladjusted men.

[Devin]

       Modern men focus on looks because that's what they desire from women, looks, modern women focus on career and material success because that's what they desire from men, they're both nincompoops, falling for this trendy narrative of gender indifference.

"She only wants me for my body ?"

"I work hard and provide everything he wants, but he still won't have sex with me ?"

Edited March 11, 2023 by Devin

[spiritual memes]

11 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Because in a fight they are useless

Maybe not in striking but in grappling they are definitely useful. I do bjj and the buff guys are much harder to grapple with even if they aren't that skilled. They just grab hold of you and its hard to escape. That being said, if they are unskilled, then their strength can be worked around with skill and agility.

[spiritual memes]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

Many men think they have dating problems or women problems or Masculinity problems.

But they don’t have any of these problems. They have Shame problems that disguise themselves as problems with dating, women, and Masculinity.

And they try to throw pick up at it. Or they try to self-improve in other ways. They try to fit their image of the ideal man.

And it turns into a constant attempt to fix and become perfectly Masculine to absolve themselves of feelings of Shame.

Yeah that used to be me a few years ago. It absolutely sucked.