Posted March 10, 2023 49 minutes ago, Thought Art said: But, I can also be an asshole and I apologize for that. That’s okay, admitting and being aware of that is better than not at all I also would like to apologize to anyone I’ve hurt as well. I AM Lovin' It Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Thought Art said: I am pretty spiritually oriented. But, I can also be an asshole and I apologize for that. Man, you're the farthest thing from an asshole. You're only being an asshole to yourself by saying that Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: Man, you're the farthest thing from an asshole. You're only being an asshole to yourself by saying that We definitely are our worst critic… …but also our best supporter I AM Lovin' It Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Nilsi said: lol You're the one spitting dogma. I'm talking from direct experience, which is why your little song and dance is so ridiculous to me. You deny my experience and then tell me I'm the one with burden of proof? Give me a break. Of course you're the one with the burden of proof, because you're claiming outrageous stuff that nobody ever has demonstrated, and that goes against your own existence and everybody's daily experience, and really against the most basic common sense. You might as well claim to have wings and the ability to fly and ask us to believe you and discard our morality without proof. Generally, if you can't prove something to others, then it's wise that you keep it to yourself. It's probably a confused subjective misperception that is not worth sharing anyway. Or if you have a strong desire to share it, then at least acknowledge it as it is, and understand it as just that. It's generally not wise to make claims that you cannot back up. To take this point home, you should understand that your "direct experience" does not come without at least one layer of interpretation. So while I don't deny what you've experienced, I don't think you're interpreting it properly or thinking it through. Take a break, then come back once you've got the evidence, or the clarity Edited March 11, 2023 by Gesundheit2 Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: Yeah, and I'm saying morality is on our DNA, so it's intrinsically linked to survival. Sexuality is also in our DNA, yet at a sufficient level of consciousness I can choose not to express it. 9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: Mystical states are in a sense beyond survival, but to the degree the mystic is tied to their human body and surrounding society, their state of consciousness will generally be in service of it. In a genuine mystical state there is no mystic and no human body it could be tied to - framing it the way you do is the abstraction. 9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: That is the insight of the Bodhisattva. The bodhisattva takes a religious vow to serve all sentient beings - this has nothing to do with it being true. 9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: It's of course possible to "neglect" your own body in such states, but this will generally be a conscious decision and as a part of a disruptive practice (asceticism, renunciation, etc.), and it doesn't really hurt other people. It's not just possible, it's inevitable. I wouldn't call it neglect though and it's not a choice in that sense. Transcending physicality and all distinctions within reality makes all your notions fly out the window. 9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: Being tied to a human body is not impartial, so if you go around pretending to be impartial in that realm, you're not really getting it. I agree. I'm not pretending that humans can be impartial to their body. I'm saying at a certain level of consciousness you transcend this whole paradigm. Edited March 11, 2023 by Nilsi “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said: Of course you're the one with the burden of proof, because you're claiming outrageous stuff that nobody ever has demonstrated, and that goes against your own existence and everybody's daily experience, and really against the most basic common sense. You might as well claim to have wings and the ability to fly and ask us to believe you and discard our morality without proof. Generally, if you can't prove something to others, then it's wise that you keep it to yourself. It's probably a confused subjective misperception that is not worth sharing anyway. Or if you have a strong desire to share it, then at least acknowledge it as it is, and understand it as just that. It's generally not wise to make claims that you cannot back up. To take this point home, you should understand that your "direct experience" does not come without at least one layer of interpretation. So while I don't deny what you've experienced, I don't think you're interpreting it properly or thinking it through. Take a break, then come back once you've got the evidence, or the clarity Since when do we pretend that first person experience is provable. I thought this horse had been beaten to death by now. Leo has been explaining this to you for years now, so I won't bother. “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Nilsi said: Since when do we pretend that first person experience is provable. I didn't ask you to prove your first person experience. I asked you to prove what you claimed about that experience, namely that it is possible to survive without morality, and that it is possible to have consciousness without being alive. You don't have to do that yourself, just give one example. Just one, not even two. Should not be hard to do if you're that confident. Quote I thought this horse had been beaten to death by now. Then I guess the horse has been resurrected. Quote Leo has been explaining this to you for years now, so I won't bother. No, please bother. I wanna learn. Leo taught me a lot, maybe you can too. Edited March 11, 2023 by Gesundheit2 Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 22 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said: people express who they are rather than the truth Thats deep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 31 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said: I didn't ask you to prove your first person experience. I asked you to prove what you claimed about that experience, namely that it is possible to survive without morality, and that it is possible to have consciousness without being alive. You don't have to do that yourself, just give one example. Just one, not even two. Should not be hard to do if you're that confident. Then I guess the horse has been resurrected. No, please bother. I wanna learn. Leo taught me a lot, maybe you can too. Prove to me that it's possible to taste chocolate. “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Nilsi said: Prove to me that it's possible to taste chocolate. I did not claim that it is possible to taste chocolate. You claimed that it is possible to live without consciousness and without morality. And even if it somehow seemed to you that I claim that it is possible to taste chocolate, don't believe me. Edited March 11, 2023 by Gesundheit2 Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said: I did not claim that it is possible to taste chocolate. You claimed that it is possible to live without consciousness and without morality. And even if it somehow seemed to you that I claim that it is possible to taste chocolate, don't believe me. I'm just showing you how ridiculous your demand for proof is. I'm also not telling you to believe me. I couldn't care less. I'm sharing my perspective as compellingly as possible and I'm always open for dialectic inquiry, but you're either communicating in bad faith, or you're just thinking sloppily. Edited March 11, 2023 by Nilsi “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: I'm just showing you how ridiculous your demand for proof is. And you're failing severely. I'm still convinced that you need to support your claims with evidence. And there's no better evidence than the truth. But you don't have that, so you keep jumping around the point, playing the teacher, trying to be right, and thinking that you can get away with it. 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: I'm also not telling you to believe me. I couldn't care less. Yes, you were not telling me to believe you. You were telling me that it is possible to live without consciousness and without morality. Are you ever going to address that directly or what? 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: I'm sharing my perspective as compellingly as possible and I'm always open for dialectic inquiry, but you're either communicating in bad faith, or you're just thinking sloppily. Thanks for the ad hominem and projection. I would say, so far, you have not demonstrated much openness. But don't you worry about me. Let's just worry about your claims. Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 11 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said: And you're failing severely. I'm still convinced that you need to support your claims with evidence. And there's no better evidence than the truth. But you don't have that, so you keep jumping around the point, playing the teacher, trying to be right, and thinking that you can get away with it. Yes, you were not telling me to believe you. You were telling me that it is possible to live without consciousness and without morality. Are you ever going to address that directly or what? Thanks for the ad hominem and projection. I would say, so far, you have not demonstrated much openness. But don't you worry about me. Let's just worry about your claims. I'm not gonna play these silly games with you. I gave you a prompt earlier to start inquiring into this, but you lack the intellectual honesty to actually question your simulation of an argument. So one more chance for you: prove to me that it's possible to taste chocolate. “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said: You were telling me that it is possible to live without consciousness [...] I never said anything like that - so much for intellectual honesty. “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: Quote You were telling me that it is possible to live without consciousness [...] I never said anything like that - so much for intellectual honesty. ? 18 hours ago, Nilsi said: Yes there is consciousness without survival. .. 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: I'm not gonna play these silly games with you. Then don't play games. Be serious and provide evidence to what you said. Hold yourself accountable. Quote I gave you a prompt earlier to start inquiring into this, but you lack the intellectual honesty to actually question your simulation of an argument. So one more chance for you: prove to me that it's possible to taste chocolate. How generous of you to give me another chance to redeem myself, sensei! But I guess I'm just a devil after all. This is not going anywhere productive, so have fun. Edited March 11, 2023 by Gesundheit2 Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 8 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said: ? .. You're literally gaslighting me right now - those aren't even remotely similar statements. 9 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said: Then don't play games. Be serious and provide evidence to what you said. Hold yourself accountable. How generous of you to give me another chance to redeem myself, sensei! But I guess I'm just a devil after all. This is not going anywhere productive, so have fun. You've embarrassed yourself and you know it, but you can't admit that of course - so here we are. “Did you ever say Yes to a single joy? O my friends, then you said Yes to all woe as well. All things are chained and entwined together, all things are in love; if ever you wanted one moment twice, if ever you said: ‘You please me, happiness! Abide, moment!’ then you wanted everything to return!” - Friedrich Nietzsche Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 5 hours ago, Nilsi said: Sexuality is also in our DNA, yet at a sufficient level of consciousness I can choose not to express it. You can do that if it's situationally appropriate, but if something is a part of you and it wants to come out, a part of being conscious is generally giving it some space. I don't think that people who are embodied in human form ever completely transcend impulses like sexuality or the moral impulse. Even a saint has sexual energy, but it's usually expressed in a different way than say an animalistic sociopath. Even a sociopath has a moral impulse, just an amputated one. 6 hours ago, Nilsi said: In a genuine mystical state there is no mystic and no human body it could be tied to - framing it the way you do is the abstraction. If you're talking about a cessation, yeah, the body literally disappears. But mystical states can be integrated into waking consciousness as well. 6 hours ago, Nilsi said: The bodhisattva takes a religious vow to serve all sentient beings - this has nothing to do with it being true. Ok, let's say they take the religious vow: will their capacity to be moral generally be lesser or greater than the average person? 6 hours ago, Nilsi said: It's not just possible, it's inevitable. I wouldn't call it neglect though and it's not a choice in that sense. Transcending physicality and all distinctions within reality makes all your notions fly out the window. It's true when you actually transcend your body, but not when you're still in it, because again, you have a moral impulse connected to survival. 6 hours ago, Nilsi said: I agree. I'm not pretending that humans can be impartial to their body. I'm saying at a certain level of consciousness you transcend this whole paradigm. Then we actually agree. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) You guys still debating? Just stop the mental masturbation and move on. I think there should be a rule in this form, like you are not allowed to exchange arguments for more than2 or 3 times, lol. Edited March 11, 2023 by LSD-Rumi "Say to the sheep in your secrecy when you intend to slaughter it, Today you are slaughtered and tomorrow I am. Both of us will be consumed. My blood and your blood, my suffering and yours is the essence that nourishes the tree of existence.'" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said: You guys still debating? Just stop the mental masturbation and move on. I think there should be a rule in this form, like you are not allowed to exchange arguments for more than 3 or times, lol. Yeah, more than 3 arguments automatically implies trial by combat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nilsi said: You're literally gaslighting me right now - those aren't even remotely similar statements. Ouch! Did not see that one coming. Quote You've embarrassed yourself and you know it, but you can't admit that of course - so here we are. And ouch, again. Please stop torturing me Edited March 11, 2023 by Gesundheit2 Foolish until proven other-wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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