Is sales always manipulative?

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Paul Boldyrev said:

@Ulax I also talked with friends about this topic and we concluded something like this.

Also, almost everywhere in life, you have to manipulate to some degree, right? With women, business, yourself, your children, etc.

@Paul Boldyrev I'd agree.

However, the level of manipulation that does happen, isn't the same as the manipulation that you have to engage in.

For example, my view of the average relationship is that is full of manipulations. However, you can do self development work to the degree that you end up in a relationship that is way less manipulative than the norm.

 

 

[UnbornTao]

We're holding manipulation as a machiavellian activity when it doesn't have to be. It may be the context of self-survival.

Notice emotions are self-manipulations. You get angry in order to manage a sense of hurt. Manipulation can be done to empower others, etc. 

There's another possibility: communication, which is getting your experience across as it is, untouched. You're not attempting to gain anything but sharing your experience.

Say you resent someone. Then you may say: "I resent you for saying that", with the only intent of communicating that experience. In this case, what she does with it is up to her, there's no attempt in your part to create an effect on another.

Edited March 11, 2023 by UnbornTao

[StarStruck]

23 hours ago, Paul Boldyrev said:

@StarStruck So you'd also say that the means, at least in this case, justifies the end?

That is not what I'm saying. Ethics is not black and white. There is a fine line.

Edited March 11, 2023 by StarStruck

[Osaid]

What you learn from sales is that you're always manipulating and being manipulated by default, whether for good or bad. It's just that, when it comes to sales, you're consciously manipulating, whereas normally it's unconsciously done, so all of a sudden it's brought to the limelight for your ego to quarrel with: "OMG am I an evil person for manipulating people like this??"

Most people don't even know what they want or need, and so it's gonna be up to you to convince them. You could create the cure for cancer, but if you don't sell it properly, no one will buy it. People will even shun you away if you do a bad job of selling it. That's how people are. People buy so much garbage and bullshit daily from these massive companies without a second thought, and they will fight you if you try to take those things away from them, just cause it's marketed well. And here you are, a lone salesman fretting over whether you're doing the right thing or not. 

All in all, it's not really a big deal. Your job is simply to show how valuable your product is. That's all.

And also, the only reason you'd really feel dirty or overly-manipulative is because some part of you doesn't believe in what you are pitching, so of course you would feel resistance there. It's important to actually be genuinely in tune with your product. People sense lack of authenticity like a shark smelling blood in water. The best sales pitch is the one that isn't a sales pitch, if that makes sense. The intention shouldn't be "doing a successful sales pitch" but something more authentic like "showing a customer how valuable this thing is".

People unconsciously sell things all the time, they just don't notice it because it feels so genuine and natural. For example, remember that one time you recommended that one video game to your friend? Yeah, that was basically a sales pitch. You sold him on that video game. Did that feel like a slimy and overly-manipulative thing to do? No, because it was aligned with what you truly believe.

Although, slimy behavior in sales is definitely not unheard of. I mean, that's the stigma around it. So be wary of what kind of ideas and mindsets you adopt. Just cause it makes you money doesn't mean it's reasonable.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Osaid

[Optimized Life]

@StarStruck You do sales, I thought you was programmer or you do both? 

Interested because I want to learn programming (out of interest, maybe for career & business too)

I want to gain sales skills too, persuasion

Edited March 11, 2023 by Optimized Life

[Paul Boldyrev]

@Nilsi Have read the gaya scienza and some other aphorisms so far

 

And thank you!

[Paul Boldyrev]

@Ulax Yeah... no matter what you do, the opposite is always going to be within it 

 

I mean for example: Nothing is 100% good. And nothing is 100% manipulative or non-manipulative, so I definitely agree with your great point

[Paul Boldyrev]

@UnbornTao Sure, but I feel like "I want you to buy this insurance" won't work often in that job haha. (Sorry, am I getting your point wrong?)

 

And yes, I actually feel like some of Leo's content can be viewed as manipulative, but definitely in a good way.

[Paul Boldyrev]

@StarStruck Gotta find that line. Thanks!

[Paul Boldyrev]

@Osaid Wow, thanks for the concise thoughts!

 

And your last sentence reminded me of the Andrew Tate video Leo did. So many men are corrupted by unreasonable mindsets that get them laid. 

 

In the end, I will try to stay as true and honest as possible. Luckily, the company I'd work for encourages transparency.

 

 

[StarStruck]

13 hours ago, Optimized Life said:

@StarStruck You do sales, I thought you was programmer or you do both? 

Interested because I want to learn programming (out of interest, maybe for career & business too)

I want to gain sales skills too, persuasion

Sales was my side job for a while. 

[UnbornTao]

3 hours ago, Paul Boldyrev said:

@UnbornTao Sure, but I feel like "I want you to buy this insurance" won't work often in that job haha. (Sorry, am I getting your point wrong?)

 

And yes, I actually feel like some of Leo's content can be viewed as manipulative, but definitely in a good way.

Of course being effective at business requires following whatever rules the game has. In that context, communication doesn't seem to be the best strategy. Sometimes it might be appropriate sharing your enthusiasm for the service or product, if it's a real sentiment. But yeah, manipulation is needed in business -- creating an effect on another for one's own's benefit. 

[Ulax]

12 hours ago, Paul Boldyrev said:

@Ulax Yeah... no matter what you do, the opposite is always going to be within it 

 

I mean for example: Nothing is 100% good. And nothing is 100% manipulative or non-manipulative, so I definitely agree with your great point

@Paul Boldyrev Thanks man. I like your vibe btw dude ?

 

[mr_engineer]

Yes, sales must be manipulative. Precisely because if you give your stuff for free, people will call you a saint. Charity is 'good', sales is 'evil', in society's terms. Because sales is selfish in comparison to charity, you want something in exchange for what you're giving. Which is why, salespeople have to manipulate to a certain degree. 

There is only one exception to this rule. And that is that the customer is a conscious consumer. They know what they want and they're coming to you, the salesperson, for education about the thing that you have to offer. Here, if you know your product and how it can meet the need of the customer, there's no need for manipulation. 

The problem is that most people are not conscious consumers. They window-shop for things they like and truly want and then settle for a cheaper, lower-quality alternative. If the customer is unconscious and you have to survive, you have to manipulate. 

[Leo Gura]

Not all manipulation is wrong/bad. Though this can be badly abused.

You can do sales in more conscious and ethical ways.

But the real question is: Will you? Or will you invent some kind of fig leaf to cover what is actually devilry?

Many companies will simply not allow you to do conscious/ethical sales because all they care about is maximizing profits. So you will have to find the right company if this is to work.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[gettoefl]

the only ethical sales is

you need this but you don't realize it and i shall hereby tell you why

 

if you are dealing with a person's wants not needs

this is manipulation and unethical

why unethical?

you dont know if i have money for your wares so you are potentially taking money from a child's mouth

if it's a need you are perfectly justified

 

needs are far more wide ranging that one realises; there are many things i can sell you that you had no clue you needed

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by gettoefl

[Paul Boldyrev]

@Ulax Thanks man and likewise : )

[Paul Boldyrev]

@mr_engineer I'm actually thinking of trying to make prospects conscious for our sales talks... do you think that could work?

[Paul Boldyrev]

@Leo Gura Well, I'll have to see that. But it seems like the company gives you lots of freedom in how you go about things...

 

So, as long as I keep a moderate amount of profits flowing and, if necessary, provide other forms of value, I think I should be all right

 

Do you have any advice/ resource on how to keep track of my psychology so I don't come up with a "fig leaf"?

Thanks dude!

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Paul Boldyrev said:

@mr_engineer I'm actually thinking of trying to make prospects conscious for our sales talks... do you think that could work?

Either go into sales and accept that the world is not all rainbows and butterflies or stay out of it.

Dont kid yourself - sales is a dirty business.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Nilsi