Marianne Williamson Is Running For President

[Vrubel]

@Emerald Having gender fluidity books in school is pretty fucked up. Shit like this got people voting for Trump. What's wrong with good old classic literature or scientific books about nature and the universe? 


 

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) You can search for videos of interviews of people who have transitioned, regretted it, and de-transitioned. These are not insignificant cases. When a child cannot access a gay book in the classroom, that is not going to ruin anyone's life. It is effectively irrelevant. But when a teen is deluded into transitioning and being gender fluid, that is potentially a life-destroying thing. There is no comparison between those two. How many regretful de-transitioned cases do you require before you take it as a serious concern?

2) Once the evidence is overwhelming enough for you to admit it and change your worldview, that will already be too late, as 1000s of teen's lives would be destroyed. And there could be subtle effects from this gender fluidity stuff that you will not even connect with it, such as creating an entire generation of incels, even worse than now. Once that happens and you acknowledge it, it will already be too late to fix. And these incels will not just sit back quietly, they will start shooting up schools worse than today. You really have to consider the full long-range secondary consequence of all this gender ideology. It is not obvious what it will lead to.

Trans people are not an ideology… just like gay people are not an ideology.

Some people are just gay. And some people are just trans.

And I have listened to many stories from those who detransitioned.

About 5 or so years ago, I got curious about the perspective of trans people. And I was watching a lot of trans YouTubers to learn more about their experiences.

And a handful of them were talking about their detransition stories. And this was at a time before detransitioners were a mainstay in the anti-trans movement.

And it wasn’t framed as a harrowing experience (not that I’m saying that that experience couldn’t be a bad experience). It’s was more of a “this was part of my journey” framing.

They were just telling what happened and why they detransitioned. And there was no anti-trans message imbedded in their anecdotes.

And beyond anecdotes… statistically  speaking, the de-transition rate for trans people is around 2%. And I certainly have empathy for people who go through that.

But as with most things in politics, it’s a railroad problem.

Are you going to prevent 98% trans youth who often have suicidal ideation as a result of gender dysphoria from accessing puberty blockers and potentially hormone replacement therapy… to prevent 2% of trans youth from having to go through the process of detransitioning?

Let’s not understate this… that there are more kids’ lives at stake by preventing access to gender affirming care.

Also, when it comes to kids and teenagers who actually get access to hormone replacement therapy, the number (as of a few months ago) was just under 5,000 kids in the United States. That’s about 100 kids in each state.

It’s hardly the epidemic that everyone’s framing it as.

So, it isn’t a situation where they’re prescribing these drugs willy nilly to anyone who asks for them.

And there are already medical protocols in place to determine over a period of time whether or not the person is actually trans.

In the Norwegian model, the person is monitored for consistency over the course of a couple years, then the doctor may prescribe hormone replacement therapy.

And I’m sure the U.S. has similar protocols.

So, I recommend that you do what I did a few years ago and get a more holistic understanding of trans issues before you go into panic mode.

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

@Emerald Having gender fluidity books in school is pretty fucked up. Shit like this got people voting for Trump. What's wrong with good old classic literature or scientific books about nature and the universe? 
 

Again… my argument has never been that we need books about sexuality and gender in schools.

I don’t feel strongly about that in either direction. Kids will be fine either way.

I’m fine if the books are there. And I’m fine if the books aren’t there.

Kids already know a lot more about genders and sexualities than the average adult, simply because they are growing up in this generation.

I’m fairly confident that they’ll figure it out.

My issue is that DeSantis is being authoritarian because of the laws he is passing for the purpose of influencing young minds. And the fact that teachers are having to worry about getting a felony for having the “wrong book” in their classroom.

It’s not really about the type of books he’s banning… it’s about the fact that he’s banning them and using the threat of really intense punishments to enforce those bans.

[ZenAlex]

41 minutes ago, Emerald said:

uicidal ideation as a result of gender dysphoria from accessing puberty blockers and potentially hormone replacement therapy… to prevent 2% of trans youth from having to go through the process of detransitioning?

 

If you're 18+, do whatever you want to your body.

If you're a kid, you should get mental health support and support groups etc. I don't agree with giving kids drugs and other medical treatments that can have negatives, because I do not believe kids can consent to it. It feels wrong.

[Vrubel]

@Emerald Fair enough. Though I also understand the need to control certain books so as not to expose children to certain topics. There is for example absolutely no reason why gender fluidity needs to be taught in schools. If it is, it's because an agenda is being pushed. Which is very cringe and obnoxious and doesn't respect the ignorance and innocence of children (including teenagers.)
People with outlying gender distortions are a small minority. Most boys that are feminine and overly sensitive are just that, boys! they will grow up and mature into men.

So yeah let's just make sure kids know who Mark Twain is and spare them all that gender confusion a minority of the population struggles with. 

[Devin]

        If a progressive state wants to allow it I will support that, but I support traditional states not allowing it.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

If you're 18+, do whatever you want to your body.

If you're a kid, you should get mental health support and support groups etc. I don't agree with giving kids drugs and other medical treatments that can have negatives, because I do not believe kids can consent to it. It feels wrong.

The official treatment for gender dysphoria is social and/or medical transitioning.

And it’s the official treatment because it’s highly effective.

What you’re saying is to ignore medical experts and do less effective forms of intervention… which could lead to the kid committing suicide.

Would you rather the child commit suicide or would you rather them receive the care that they need?

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The official treatment for gender dysphoria is social and/or medical transitioning.

And it’s the official treatment because it’s highly effective.

What you’re saying is to ignore medical experts and do less effective forms of intervention… which could lead to the kid committing suicide.

Would you rather the child commit suicide or would you rather them receive the care that they need?

Have you looked at the studies? I've only seen skeleton studies, the evidence is underwhelming.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Devin

[Devin]

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2779429#247885868

"3,559 transgender people

42% reduction in the odds of experiencing past-month psychological distress, a 35% reduction in the odds of past-year tobacco smoking, and a 44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation."

 

That's suicidal ideation, not suicide. And placebo effect is normally 20-50%, which is right in line with their 44%, they didn't test a placebo, the study is bullshit in my opinion, give one group a miracle sugar pill, this is research 101.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Devin

[soos_mite_ah]

@Leo Gura I get not wanting to get into false equivalencies to avoid fear mongering and inaccurately portraying positions (i.e. comparing Trump to Hitler), but where do you draw the line when it comes to seeing what people like DeSantis is saying and pushing for authoritarianism/ fascism? Because we're already noticing the similarities in ideologies and some implementation (i.e. overturning Roe v. Wade, banning books etc.). My thing is that we don't have to be on the brink of concentration camps and territorial expansion for something to be fascist or authoritarian. Much of the ideologies and attitudes that fuel fascism and authoritarian regimes aren't some kind of slippery slope, I agree with you on that. You can see signs framework, discrimination, and policies decades before something like the Holocaust happen. We can intervene early on if we know what to look out for but it's not like we can predict how much harm this can cause down the line so it's preferable to err on the side of caution for the future and on the side of empathy in the present by listening to the marginalized who see this behavior and can smell the bs from a mile away.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Devin said:

Have you looked at the studies? I've only seen skeleton studies, the evidence is underwhelming.

I haven’t looked at any double-blind studies.

I’m not sure that those kinds of studies could even exist in this case…. because you couldn’t actually create a control group who gets placebo hormone replacement therapy.

You kind of have to go by surveys and case studies. 

So, I’ve seen surveys, and heard lots of anecdotes.

It’s very common to hear stories like, ‘I was miserable and depressed but then I transitioned and it was like a weight was lifted off of me.’

My husband’s friend who is trans said that, before she transitioned, she was dealing with alcohol addiction and all sorts of other problems.

But when she transitioned, she no longer struggled with it. And she’s doing quite well for herself since I met her.

And you hear these same kinds of stories time and time again.

And the survey statistics I’ve seen match up with these anecdotes.

My view is that I will listen to trans people about their experiences. And I will listen to medical professionals who work directly with trans people.

I don’t tend to put much stock in other people’s perspectives on this issue because they tend to be uninformed and operating off of lots of misunderstandings and fear-based gut reactions. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Emerald

[Devin]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

I haven’t looked at any double-blind studies.

I’m not sure that those kinds of studies could even exist in this case…. because you couldn’t actually create a control group who gets placebo hormone replacement therapy.

You kind of have to go by surveys and case studies. 

So, I’ve seen surveys, and heard lots of anecdotes.

It’s very common to hear stories like, ‘I was miserable and depressed but then I transitioned and it was like a weight was lifted off of me.’

My husband’s friend who is trans said that, before she transitioned, she was dealing with alcohol addiction and all sorts of other problems.

But when she transitioned, she no longer struggled with it. And she’s doing quite well for herself since I met her.

And you hear these same kinds of stories time and time again.

And the survey statistics I’ve seen match up with these anecdotes.

My view is that I will listen to trans people about their experiences. And I will listen to medical professionals who work directly with trans people.

I don’t tend to put much stock in other people’s perspectives on this issue because they tend to be uninformed and operating off of lots of misunderstandings and fear-based gut reactions. 

Placebo could literally be a sugar pill, "this will make you feel better". That's what transitioning could be doing, "this is my problem and solution."

Edited March 18, 2023 by Devin

[Leo Gura]

14 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

@Leo Gura but where do you draw the line when it comes to seeing what people like DeSantis is saying and pushing for authoritarianism/ fascism?

There is no clear line. Which is why it's difficult. You just have to use common sense.

Quote

You can see signs framework, discrimination, and policies decades before something like the Holocaust happen. We can intervene early on if we know what to look out for but it's not like we can predict how much harm this can cause down the line so it's preferable to err on the side of caution for the future

Again, notice how you sneak in this fear about the Holocaust happening again and you say it in the context of DeSantis. It's like, on the one hand you say you're not doing that, but also you are doing it.

The reason I'm not worried that DeSantis will be a true fascist is because American institution, culture, society, and courts are too developed to allow that in practice. Basically the way you know that we're not going to have another Holocaust is because America has developed beyond such things. Of course you could try to argue that we really haven't, and that anything is possible. And technically anything is always possible. However, common sense suggests that making such arguments is not realistic and it leads to a misunderstanding of the right-wing in this country.

I just don't see that DeSantis would be much worse than Trump, George W Bush, or Reagan. Of course I still don't like the policies of either of them. Do their policies hurt and even kill some people? Yes. But is this some Nazi-level movement that will bring the country to its knees? No.

18 hours ago, Emerald said:

What you’re saying is to ignore medical experts and do less effective forms of intervention… which could lead to the kid committing suicide.

Would you rather the child commit suicide or would you rather them receive the care that they need?

How do you explain psychological research which shows that if you leave kids with gender dysphoria alone until they turn 18, 80% of them will grow out of it?

Edited March 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no clear line. Which is why it's difficult. You just have to use common sense.

Again, notice how you sneak in this fear about the Holocaust happening again and you say it in the context of DeSantis. It's like, on the one hand you say you're not doing that, but also you are doing it.

The reason I'm not worried that DeSantis will be a true fascist is because American institution, culture, society, and courts are too developed to allow that in practice. Basically the way you know that we're not going to have another Holocaust is because America has developed beyond such things. Of course you could try to argue that we really haven't, and that anything is possible. And technically anything is always possible. However, common sense suggests that making such arguments is not realistic and it leads to a misunderstanding of the right-wing in this country.

I just don't see that DeSantis would be much worse than Trump, George W Bush, or Reagan. Of course I still don't like the policies of either of them. Do their policies hurt and even kill some people? Yes. But is this some Nazi-level movement that will bring the country to its knees? No.

How do you explain psychological research which shows that if you leave kids with gender dysphoria alone until they turn 18, 80% of them will grow out of it?

If DeSantis was a moderate Republican like Mitt Romney, McCain, Eisenhower, Nixon, or Ford, then I would be okay with him being president. 

However, his economic policies are still are still too far to the right. There’s no denying that unless you are a right wing extremist or even a Reagan/Bush Republican.

Btw, I don’t like his stance on the War in Ukraine. Like Trump, he doesn’t support the need to help Ukraine stop Russia.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Hardkill

[Danioover9000]

   I really hope when I'm dead, I don't reincarnate into this world again. Maybe a ghost or an Alien would be cool.

[Danioover9000]

   Like the level of derailing of this threat is an artform @Carl-Richard. We started off talking about Marianne Williamson, being a progressive woman and candidate, and our first argumentation was about the likelihood off her winning the whatever political levels first to debate with Biden. Then the argument started including sub argument or subplots like Donald Trump, and Ron DeSantis and topics, or another argument thread about whether Rebublicans/American Republicanism are Nazi/Fascists, and yes here I interjected with a joke about tendons and ligaments and the world still needs scientists that study fascia because the derailing was getting apparent to me, and @Emerald bullied me using etymology from Wikipedia or whatever. Oh, yes somewhere in between these two new arguments I brought up Margaret Thatcher as the female conservative equivalent of Marianne Williamson but whatever again because most users at that point were swept up with the tides of derailing. Now we're at a new third type of argument, specifically about progressivism and...gender therapy and transgender ideology???Okay, where does Marianne Williamson fit into this new argument, and how does it tie back to her likeliness of being in the final debate????

   

 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Now we're at a new third type of argument, specifically about progressivism and...gender therapy and transgender ideology???Okay, where does Marianne Williamson fit into this new argument, and how does it tie back to her likeliness of being in the final debate????

I think most people have said what they wanted to say already in terms of Marianne's chances of winning. We made our claims, now it's time to watch and see what happens.

Here is what her website says about her stance in terms of LGBTQ+:

https://marianne2024.com/issues/lgbtqia-plus-rights/

Her stance clearly favors the progressive POV. Which generally I also approve of, simply because I think the harm of most conservative policies outweigh the harm of most progressive policies on this issue. Ideally we could address the concerns on all sides.

Regardless, it's extremely naive to think this territory will navigated without many problems occurring, no matter what choice you make. That is simply not how politics works.

The way politics works is that even when you make the BEST decision, a whole bunch of fucked up things still happen. And then we spend the next couple decades fixing all those things, and the cycle repeats over and over.

Also, I do not seriously see Desantis' policies on LGBTQ as a slippery slope into fascism. Leo is correct on this point, and I think framing Desantis this way likely does more harm than good. Which is not to say I support any of Desantis positions.

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

8 hours ago, aurum said:

I think most people have said what they wanted to say already in terms of Marianne's chances of winning. We made our claims, now it's time to watch and see what happens.

Here is what her website says about her stance in terms of LGBTQ+:

https://marianne2024.com/issues/lgbtqia-plus-rights/

Her stance clearly favors the progressive POV. Which generally I also approve of, simply because I think the harm of most conservative policies outweigh the harm of most progressive policies on this issue. Ideally we could address the concerns on all sides.

Regardless, it's extremely naive to think this territory will navigated without many problems occurring, no matter what choice you make. That is simply not how politics works.

The way politics works is that even when you make the BEST decision, a whole bunch of fucked up things still happen. And then we spend the next couple decades fixing all those things, and the cycle repeats over and over.

Also, I do not seriously see Desantis' policies on LGBTQ as a slippery slope into fascism. Leo is correct on this point, and I think framing Desantis this way likely does more harm than good. Which is not to say I support any of Desantis positions.

   I agree, straw manning Desantis as the next Adolf Hitler and Neo Nazi ain't helping the discourse at all, poisoning the well with bad faith communication. Desantis is a Republican American, not a German Nazi. How many people are effected with the Vaush rhetoric of ALL REIGHT WINGERS ARE NAZI?

   True, I partly agree, every decision in politics isn't perfect, every decision has consequences. Therefore, we pick the decisions with ideally the least consequences, for example we leave children with gender dysphoria alone until they turn 20(it's 18 but I want to round the number up, I love rounding up numbers), we then observe what happens, and we see that most on average with gender dysphoria grow out of that confusing state, while some or a few still have the gender dysphoria around 18 year old, and some resolve the gender dysphoria earlier as well. This decision clearly has less risk, compared to going strait to hormonal therapy and gender surgery which can be complicated to retransmission from. To me being conservative minded here is more practical and effective than being liberal minded here yes?

   True, I somewhat agree with Marianne Williamson's progressive sounding points. I'd rather have be balanced out and grounded with being more conservative minded, given how sometimes off the rails progressive ideas can go in practice, like be more Margaret Thatcher like or something? Like be more reasonable and less fantastical? Because these policies can and do have effects on peoples lives?

   Just because we've exhausted talking about Marianne Williamson's chances of winning, doesn't justify continuing the thread and derailing this thread, or which justification do you think is valid for justifying the continued derailing? What does Progressivism, LGBTQ, Nazism, Fascism, Desantis, Trump, Aliens, Ghosts, A course in miracles, have ANYTHING TO DO with the main thread point: Marianne Williamson's chances of winning?

   

   

[Emerald]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How do you explain psychological research which shows that if you leave kids with gender dysphoria alone until they turn 18, 80% of them will grow out of it?

Show me the research.

Edit: Also, that 80% would probably be weeded out from consideration for hormone replacement therapy through the protocols that are in place in the medical institution.

For example, one thing that doctors look out for are tells within the language the person uses to talk about being trans.

So, if a (born male) teenager is consistently talking about it in terms of “I am a girl”… vs consistently talking about it in terms of “I wish I was a girl”.

The latter can be a tell that the person is dealing with other issues.

But there aren’t many kids/teens on HRT. Like I said, it was under 5000 kids in the U.S. as of a few months ago. That’s less than 100 kids per state.

But the kids who get it have been determined by a process of working with medical professionals as being in need of that treatment. And that likely means that they were dealing with some pretty serious issues as a result of gender dysphoria.

It’s best not to assume you know better than trans people and the medical professionals that work with them.

The medical professionals aren’t just ideologues trying to shoehorn in an agenda. If you’re aware of this research, they probably are too and probably already take it into consideration in their diagnostic criteria.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Emerald

[Emerald]

14 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 @Emerald bullied me using etymology from Wikipedia or whatever.

I didn’t bully you. I just said you were wrong and explained why I thought you were wrong.