Burned food

[StarStruck]

I see tons of people eat burned food like it is a normal thing and they call it "flavor".. burned diary butter and food tastes like shit.. the whole thing of a good steak dinner is that the butter is not burned.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by StarStruck

[Osaid]

Lol modern cooking is funny in that way. Then you have people who sous vide their meat (boiling it while it is encased in plastic) and that's considered high quality. This is exactly how I perceived food when I was addicted to refined carbs, all that mattered was how it tasted, that was "high-end" and "satisfying".

My body's perception has entirely changed since then and I only see "high quality" in things that are genuinely nutritious now.

[UnbornTao]

Doesn't that also produce harmful compounds in food?

Edited March 6, 2023 by UnbornTao

[sholomar]

It's traditional when cooking a steak to sear the outside while having it pink on the inside. It's more carcinogenic but many enjoy that charred flavor in meat.  I've been known to use a propane torch to add char to my steaks, something I learned from a chef in fact. The entire steak is not burnt to a crisp, just the outside.  A meat thermometer is used to get the inside to the correct temperature for a medium rare to medium cooked steak. 

In fact, having outside char is pretty much the standard way to cook a steak in the United States at least. You wouldn't go and boil a steak, that wouldn't taste very good. The steak in the above video is what I would call "perfectly cooked"  and is how mine look upon completion.  Gotta live a little.

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by sholomar

[Leo Gura]

Def not healthy to eat burned stuff. Cancer risk.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

12 hours ago, sholomar said:

It's traditional when cooking a steak to sear the outside while having it pink on the inside. It's more carcinogenic but many enjoy that charred flavor in meat.  I've been known to use a propane torch to add char to my steaks, something I learned from a chef in fact. The entire steak is not burnt to a crisp, just the outside.  A meat thermometer is used to get the inside to the correct temperature for a medium rare to medium cooked steak. 

In fact, having outside char is pretty much the standard way to cook a steak in the United States at least. You wouldn't go and boil a steak, that wouldn't taste very good. The steak in the above video is what I would call "perfectly cooked"  and is how mine look upon completion.  Gotta live a little.

 

Caramelization of the food is different from burned food

[Michael569]

Yes, burned meat is associated with colorectal cancer even when controlled for calories and meat quantity.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30275115/ 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21533415/

The guy in the video is all about maximising enjoyment and pleasure from the food, I doubt he gives a shit about heterocyclic amines and PAHs and all those wonderful carcinogenic particles being created in gazillion/per gram once you burn red meat on something with as shitty concentration of antioxidants as butter. If he at least made it on vegetable oil, it would be safer. 

Yes, you absolutely don't burn animal flesh and eat it. You shouldn't even eat burned carbs like toast or burned potatoes, This is an absolutely idiotic trait of stage orange people who somehow think open-air grilling and being the "barbecue operating dude" who drinks beer while serving everybody cancer makes them more manly.  

I do get the social benefits of grilling, tho, although I'd still prefer to get a burned aubergine to a burned steak. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Michael569

[StarStruck]

@Michael569

It has nothing to do with SD orange. I see tons of people make other dishes. For example caramelize some unions for some dish like curry and they burn the unions, call it flavor, not knowing burned butter and food tastes like shit

Food tastes the best when the food and butter is not burned:

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by StarStruck

[UnbornTao]

11 hours ago, Michael569 said:

vegetable oil

A high-quality variety like extra virgin olive oil, not refined oil made with sunflower and similar crap.

Edited March 7, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Michael569]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Food tastes the best when the food and butter is not burned:

I don't disagree on that. Food doesn't need to be blackened tho to be already loaded with hydrocarbons especially when you cook on an open flame. As with everything, moderation is the key. Don't barbecue 3 times a week and you'll probably be fine. 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

not refined sunflower oil or other crap.

Okay, you asked for this    

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6121943/#!po=30.0000  This is one of the best reviews to date on this topic. 

Short summary: they pooled results from 54 clinical trials, and controlled trials, this is no epidemiology. The RCTs’ length ranged between 3 and 27 weeks; the mean age of the participants was between 22 and 84 years and their BMI was between 20.2 and 31.1 kg/m2.  - so basically you are looking at young and old people, most of which were not overweight and/or sick and the duration of studies was long enough to see reasonable changes. 

Basically, when it comes to pulling nutritional data, it doesn't get much better than this. The only downside is that this is a 2018 review and we need a refresher. 

FINDINGS: 

LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) 
Each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing LDL-C (−0.42 to −0.23 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil had a more pronounced effect on LDL-C when compared with lard (−0.33 to −0.20 mmol/l). Moreover, sunflower oil was more effective in reducing LDL-C than olive and palm oil (−0.10 to −0.09 mmol/l

Triglycerides (TG)
Likewise to LDL-C, each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing TC (−0.49 to −0.18 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil were more potent to improve TC in comparison to lard (−0.42 to −0.25 mmol/l). In addition, safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, and corn oil resulted in stronger decreases in TC when compared with palm and coconut oil (−0.31 to −0.13 mmol/l), while safflower, sunflower, and rapeseed oil were more effective in reducing TC compared with olive oil (−0.21 to −0.10 mmol/l).

Oils compared to eachother  

I don't know if you know how to read forest plots but go to Figure 3.I appreciate if you've never seen one of these, it is a bit intimidating, but this is basically how claims need to be made. This chart represents actual people in clinical settings. These are data when people are actively observed and monitored. They include meal replacements, and food being delivered to people's homes. 

Main observations here: 

• Butter is the worst of all the fats and oils for cholesterol 
• Beef Fat and Lard are following closely 
• Coconut is kinda meh. It is worse than most plant oils and even comparable to beef fat. Still better than butter 
• Sunflower, Rapeseed and Safflower oil are all pretty comparable and they are absolutely tanking everything else (in a positive way) . If I HAD TO say which one is the best, I would say that Safflower Oil is probably the king with Rapeseed (Canola) coming close by at the second place. 
• Flax oil is kinda neat too and so is Soybean and Corn Oil 
• Olive oil is no better than any of the plant and seed oils, in fact it is a bit worse (but still beneficial overall) 
• there is little difference between all vegetable and seed oils when compared to one another but most of them beat lard, beef fat, butter and coconut 

Hope that helps! That was exhausting 30 minutes

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Michael569

[Osaid]

9 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Okay, you asked for this    

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6121943/#!po=30.0000  This is one of the best reviews to date on this topic. 

Short summary: they pooled results from 54 clinical trials, and controlled trials, this is no epidemiology. The RCTs’ length ranged between 3 and 27 weeks; the mean age of the participants was between 22 and 84 years and their BMI was between 20.2 and 31.1 kg/m2.  - so basically you are looking at young and old people, most of which were not overweight and/or sick and the duration of studies was long enough to see reasonable changes. 

Basically, when it comes to pulling nutritional data, it doesn't get much better than this. The only downside is that this is a 2018 review and we need a refresher. 

FINDINGS: 

LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) 
Each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing LDL-C (−0.42 to −0.23 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil had a more pronounced effect on LDL-C when compared with lard (−0.33 to −0.20 mmol/l). Moreover, sunflower oil was more effective in reducing LDL-C than olive and palm oil (−0.10 to −0.09 mmol/l

Triglycerides (TG)
Likewise to LDL-C, each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing TC (−0.49 to −0.18 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil were more potent to improve TC in comparison to lard (−0.42 to −0.25 mmol/l). In addition, safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, and corn oil resulted in stronger decreases in TC when compared with palm and coconut oil (−0.31 to −0.13 mmol/l), while safflower, sunflower, and rapeseed oil were more effective in reducing TC compared with olive oil (−0.21 to −0.10 mmol/l).

Oils compared to eachother  

I don't know if you know how to read forest plots but go to Figure 3.I appreciate if you've never seen one of these, it is a bit intimidating, but this is basically how claims need to be made. This chart represents actual people in clinical settings. These are data when people are actively observed and monitored. They include meal replacements, and food being delivered to people's homes. 

Main observations here: 

• Butter is the worst of all the fats and oils for cholesterol 
• Beef Fat and Lard are following closely 
• Coconut is kinda meh. It is worse than most plant oils and even comparable to beef fat. Still better than butter 
• Sunflower, Rapeseed and Safflower oil are all pretty comparable and they are absolutely tanking everything else (in a positive way) . If I HAD TO say which one is the best, I would say that Safflower Oil is probably the king with Rapeseed (Canola) coming close by at the second place. 
• Flax oil is kinda neat too and so is Soybean and Corn Oil 
• Olive oil is no better than any of the plant and seed oils, in fact it is a bit worse (but still beneficial overall) 
• there is little difference between all vegetable and seed oils when compared to one another but most of them beat lard, beef fat, butter and coconut

Isn't this all just based on the premise that cholesterol = bad?

That aside, what about the effects of oxidization and the extreme processing that oils (such as canola) go through? Once they are processed they are far from natural.

[UnbornTao]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:49 PM, Michael569 said:

Okay, you asked for this    

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6121943/#!po=30.0000  This is one of the best reviews to date on this topic. 

Short summary: they pooled results from 54 clinical trials, and controlled trials, this is no epidemiology. The RCTs’ length ranged between 3 and 27 weeks; the mean age of the participants was between 22 and 84 years and their BMI was between 20.2 and 31.1 kg/m2.  - so basically you are looking at young and old people, most of which were not overweight and/or sick and the duration of studies was long enough to see reasonable changes. 

Basically, when it comes to pulling nutritional data, it doesn't get much better than this. The only downside is that this is a 2018 review and we need a refresher. 

FINDINGS: 

LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) 
Each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing LDL-C (−0.42 to −0.23 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil had a more pronounced effect on LDL-C when compared with lard (−0.33 to −0.20 mmol/l). Moreover, sunflower oil was more effective in reducing LDL-C than olive and palm oil (−0.10 to −0.09 mmol/l

Triglycerides (TG)
Likewise to LDL-C, each 10% of dietary energy from butter replaced with an equivalent amount of safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, flaxseed, corn, olive, soybean, palm, and coconut oil, and beef fat was more effective in reducing TC (−0.49 to −0.18 mmol/l). Safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, corn, and soybean oil were more potent to improve TC in comparison to lard (−0.42 to −0.25 mmol/l). In addition, safflower, sunflower, rapeseed, and corn oil resulted in stronger decreases in TC when compared with palm and coconut oil (−0.31 to −0.13 mmol/l), while safflower, sunflower, and rapeseed oil were more effective in reducing TC compared with olive oil (−0.21 to −0.10 mmol/l).

Oils compared to eachother  

I don't know if you know how to read forest plots but go to Figure 3.I appreciate if you've never seen one of these, it is a bit intimidating, but this is basically how claims need to be made. This chart represents actual people in clinical settings. These are data when people are actively observed and monitored. They include meal replacements, and food being delivered to people's homes. 

Main observations here: 

• Butter is the worst of all the fats and oils for cholesterol 
• Beef Fat and Lard are following closely 
• Coconut is kinda meh. It is worse than most plant oils and even comparable to beef fat. Still better than butter 
• Sunflower, Rapeseed and Safflower oil are all pretty comparable and they are absolutely tanking everything else (in a positive way) . If I HAD TO say which one is the best, I would say that Safflower Oil is probably the king with Rapeseed (Canola) coming close by at the second place. 
• Flax oil is kinda neat too and so is Soybean and Corn Oil 
• Olive oil is no better than any of the plant and seed oils, in fact it is a bit worse (but still beneficial overall) 
• there is little difference between all vegetable and seed oils when compared to one another but most of them beat lard, beef fat, butter and coconut 

Hope that helps! That was exhausting 30 minutes

Thanks for sharing.

What about the state of the oil: natural vs processed? Does that account for the differences between naturally produced and ultra-processed?

The least processed form is the healthy version, not just the plain one which in the manufacturing process has been stripped of many of its beneficial compounds. Processed coconut oil, for example, is said to be nutritionally deficient, full of saturated fats, etc. The extra virgin, unprocessed variety is beneficial even, sharing some of the healthy compounds from coconuts.

It's sensible advice to avoid refined, hydrogenated oils. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Michael569]

@Osaid @UnbornTao you can probably assume that all this stuff was accounted for. People on those studies would have used a variety of oils, including extra virgin and all sorts of fancy stuff. This is something most people know about on individual levels so they would have done it.

I am not saying oxidation doesn't happen but all foods you eat trigger a production of radical oxidative particles. It's just that in the Net outcome, these things do not matter probably because, with the high content of antioxidants in veg oils, the chain of oxidation gets stopped. This is why data like the smoke point of oils are pointless because smoke doe snot equal oxidation. Butter, for example, has no antioxidants and I believe that (among others) is why it scores so badly.

I know this is just LDL data and triglycerides but you see these results in diabetes, in Alzheimer's, on bowel cancer, in AMD in stroke. I'm not trying to be biased here, but this is what the evidence represents. We can all be speculative and come up with reasons why this is all wrong and why we think the research is corrupted but that's not gonna change the outcome. These are independent trials with different populations, in different countries, different ages , even different continents and they all show the same.

All I'm saying here is that it appears olive oil is overhyped and that not all we have been told about other oils is true. Maybe you can probably save a lot of money on going for rapeseed occasionally and it won't harm you, in fact it is probably even better. And you can still find cold-pressed organic rapeseed oil for half the price. And if the market demand is high enough they'll make it extra virgin, cold-pressed in a beautiful dark glass bottle for you and triple the price so that people finally believe that it is better because for some reason we only judge oils by price. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Michael569

[StarStruck]

@Michael569 sometimes we have to choose a poison.