Women treat MEN the way men treat JOBS: how relationship goals change the dating

[StarStruck]

38 minutes ago, something_else said:

I was taking the piss out of @StarStruck for saying "I'm an extreme empath" earlier in the thread, wasn't talking about @zurew  

You'd be surprised how far a healthy dose of compassion will get you towards having healthy relationships with women. Don't believe all the red pill propaganda you read online.

It was my ego's shadow talking.

@zurew This thread is not about Andrew Tate dude. Stop this obsession with Andrew Tate.

I'm on my phone right now so I can't give lengthy answers.

Edited March 6, 2023 by StarStruck

[zurew]

On 2023. 03. 03. at 6:39 PM, StarStruck said:

Basically the same message Andrew Tate gives but obviously without the toxicity. Andrew Tate is basically Prometheus that let the red pill genie out of the bottle. Even highly educated people are basically taking over Andrew's talking points.

5 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

This thread is not about Andrew Tate dude. Stop this obsession with Andrew Tate.

Yep, Im obsessed with Tate, not you who are making his 5th thread about him or mentioning him in the beginning in your threads 

 

[StarStruck]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yep, Im obsessed with Tate, not you who are making his 5th thread about him or mentioning him in the beginning in your threads 

 

The thread is about the dude in the video.

Another gem from him

This dude is a psychologist + red pill + high metaphysical understanding. It can't get better than this. A lot of value on this channel.

[Bobby_2021]

23 hours ago, zurew said:

You are making it look like as if men won't get accepted into social circles until they earn 100k a year, going to the gym 5 times a week, develop high charisma  and other things

He will definitely get accepted into a social circle with similar value as his, not higher. An amazon warehouse minimum wage worker wouldn't hang around with web developers earning 100k.

You will not see men earning 100k speeding time with senior executives men earning 1M$+.

But a woman can be on a $100 million yacht simply because the millionaire is in love with her. He will not invite a brokie into his yacht, unless he wants to clean it. 

He will be more than happy to have hot submissive 19 year olds with him who will not be a pain in the ass to him. 

23 hours ago, zurew said:

Women in average definitely have much better social skills than men, and they have a bigger network also, they have better hygene , they have more beauty and they have more skills when it comes to cleaning and cooking, they are more emphatetic, they are better at communicating in general. Women are more social than men, thats just true in general and from that comes them having better social skills and bigger network.

Here is what you need to understand:

No one gives a fuck about "average"  men. They are not even in my analysis. It's the above average men that disproportionately influence the analysis no matter whatever your point of interest is.

I don't care if the average man is worse off than average women. This was true all throughout history.

This is why men would rather die than being called average. Because they are practically invisible. 

To be technically accurate, there is no such thing like an average man that makes realistic sense. The word average is to be taken loosely afterall. 

Average man is adding up all the attributes of 4 billion men and dividing it by 4 billion. Average woman is adding up the attributes of 4 billion women and dividing it by 4 billion.

I don't see how you can reasonably and boldly make such claims. Although I don't necessarily disagree with either. I think that the average man is shit. Which is why the average women dates Up. Who wants to be with an average man afterall? 

But that's not something you can scientifically assert.

In reality, the average man probably equal to average woman, if you want to go by the true meaning of the word average. But no one can substantiate that claim, unless you go evaluate the social skills of 4 billion men and 4 billion women. 

23 hours ago, zurew said:

don't know what social circles you are talking about "getting accepted into", but in general women are more outgoing and have more friends than men

As if the yacht example was not enough, you should know that women have no fee to enter into parties while men have to pay a fee. This is the setup in a city that I know. OR You too get a free entry if you come with a girl as your gf.

So we used to reserve the girls from our class to act as our gf so that we get free entry into clubs. 

Most hot girls don't even have a decent personality let alone social skills lol. 

A hot girl can smile and have legions of men and even women as her "friends". 

Woman have more friends because she is hot, sexy and being in her presence alone makes people happy or joyful. That's what gets her accepted into social circles with little to no social skills. 

An introvert hot girl will have tons of friends.

What does an introverted man get?

Probably bullying. 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

the mother has to sacrifice her career for all of that, so none of these things are easy.

Who cares about a stupid career? A  wise woman will not sell her soul to a corporate if she has the option to take care of her kids. 

I would rather have my mom take care of me instead of forcing her to sell her soul to the workplace where she follows the instructions of some random man who doesn't care about her.

She could choose to feed me and spend time with me but instead she choose to grind in some bull shit corporate. Irresponsible behaviour. 

When you are on your deathbed what is your most likely regret?

1. I couldn't spend time with my kids who loved me the most.

2. Shit I sacrificed my career for me kids.

You will not regret not spending more time in the office. But you will regret not spending time with your kids.

Your knee jerk reaction will now be to ask "why can't the father do it?".

A father & mother brings different skill sets to the relationship. As far as a child is concerned, the relationship with the mother is more intimate because the child is the same body as the mother. No one can provide the comfort of a mother to her children. A mother is simply more nurturing and loving to the fragile psyche of the child. 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

If we were to switch the roles I am telling you, women would be much more capable of doing the men roles than men doing the women roles

Hypothetical speculation. Not true imo. Also this is an over generalisation with no briefing of the specifics of the situation. No point in discussing this without examples. 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

Most men will go to work and then get home to a clean house, where lunch or dinner is ready, where all the problems are solved and where everything have already been taken care of.

Of course. If he can grind in the workplace the she can cook some good food. And no one takes credit away from her.

She doesn't need superficial credit from society. Her children will give her all the credit for being with them.

On the other hand, her children will definitely Regret not spending time with her mother is she choose to grind in the workplace. 

You can choose whose credit you want. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

Your linked article agrees with me (that people date in the (same class, same culture, same intelligence level, same  or similar finance level etc):

Thats not the point of the article.

Women will always date up if she has the choice.

When she runs out of men who are "up" then she selects men who are *equal* to her in social standing.

But that's not out of choice, but scarcity. 

She will not date men of similar social standing as her, if she has the obvious choice to date up. 

But a lot depends on the social circles she is at the moment. Is she is in a small social circle with little to no exposure, then she may settle down with an idiot, simply because she doesn't know aby better. 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

One trait could be intelligence, other could be she earning a lot of money other could be she having a successful career other could be she having a very rich family etc et

Are you seriously joking or what?

Imagine me breaking up with my gf like this "babe you are earning too much cash... What are we going to do with $200k that you are earning?... we have so much cash laying around... Damn we have to break up...

Let me go find a broke ass woman to marry so that we grind at Burger king together for 30k ."

Said no man. ?

No man will rejet a woman because she has too much cash laying around lmaoo.. your arguments are hysterical. 

No man is intimidated with too much money. What kind of a lazy argument is that? 

I would love to settle with a rich woman from a rich family. That would be such a lottery. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

don't even know what a 70% men even mean,

70 percentile man is a man who is better than 70% of the men out there. 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

Again if you attached to the idea of "women will only date up" then I can make arguments why men will only date up as well (this game is so silly, because it all depends on what variable you are focusing on, so I dont know why some of you guys are so attached to this idea).

I am not attached to any idea. I am making a well documented and well observed claim. I would change my mind if studies suggested otherwise.

Go ahead. Make up whatever arguments you want about men. No one is stopping you. 

My claim is generally, that women date up, based on social status.

Not money/resources, but STATUS.

And status is an extremely relative thing. It depends a lot on the situation what the status of a man is. 

 

 

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

He will definitely get accepted into a social circle with similar value as his, not higher. An amazon warehouse minimum wage worker wouldn't hang around with web developers earning 100k.

You will not see men earning 100k speeding time with senior executives men earning 1M$+.

But a woman can be on a $100 million yacht simply because the millionaire is in love with her. He will not invite a brokie into his yacht, unless he wants to clean it. 

He will be more than happy to have hot submissive 19 year olds with him who will not be a pain in the ass to him. 

We are getting back to the point where we talk about that each side gives value, but we often times forget that part because we are so focused on the money and resources part. A 10/10 chick will give beauty for being on a yacht, so it is not like , only one side is giving value, but more about each side is giving value (that the other side care about) (women in this case give beauty and the men could give the opportunity for that women to be on his yacht).

You might say ,"yeah but money is more valuable and has more utility than beauty", but that doesn't matter (and depending on the context, it might not even be true), because we need to evaluate all these things in the context of the dating market. It seems that men value beauty so much , that they are willing to do such things that you described above.

But if we only want to talk about the money, then we could talk about rich sugarmommies. Of course number wise there are more men who are using their money and assets to attract women, but it start to become more popular when it comes to rich single middle age or elderly women  (and we know that women start to outearn men, so its safe to assume, that it will become more of a trend as time goes on).

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

To be technically accurate, there is no such thing like an average man that makes realistic sense. The word average is to be taken loosely afterall. 

That is true, technically everyone is unique in their own way, but yeah in the context of dating we can somewhat reduce it down to countable variables.

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

A hot girl can smile and have legions of men and even women as her "friends". 

Woman have more friends because she is hot, sexy and being in her presence alone makes people happy or joyful. That's what gets her accepted into social circles with little to no social skills. 

An introvert hot girl will have tons of friends.

What does an introverted man get?

Probably bullying. 

Yeah, but when it comes to women not all women are hot and just as not all men are high in the traits that matter in the context of the dating market, the same is true for women, who are not that beautiful. But there is a big difference. The difference is that men can work on most of their skills to climb up and making themselves more valuable in terms of dating, but women who were born with bad genetics will have an insanely hard time dating and she can't even change that disadvantage, unless she has enough money for surgeries.

And again, I still disagree with some of the phrasing.  Hot women will have an easy time finding sex partners, but them being hot will make them harder to find a long term relationship, because almost every men will look at her as a sexobject even more, because she has outstanding looks. Men will look for different traits when it comes to sex vs when it comes to long term relationship, and when it comes to long term relationship, beauty will be important , but not the most important. 

You talked about certain positive traits that women can have to have a massive advantage in certain contexts, but we shouldn't forget, that every positive trait can become a negative if a different context is given. Just as a rich man having a lot of money can be a negative, if he is actually looking for a normal relationship and not for a gold digger, the same way being a 10/10 women could be good at in some cases, but when it comes to you being intelligent and hard working its a big negative, because no one will acknowledge your intelligence and what you achieved, because everything will be dismissed by assuming, that you achievied everything ,because you just used your beauty, and you will only be looked at as a sex object and you will be reduced to just that variable and nothing else will be taken into account.

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Who cares about a stupid career?

All men, and a lot of people directly connect their selfesteem to their career + the feeling of being useful is very important and finding meaning in things is also very important, and work is one things that gives people meaning.  I would be very curious how most men would be selfesteem wise,  if they would be forced to do all the women roles at home and the taking care of the kids for decades, while not being able to work on their career at all (lets say scenario , where women earns twice as much as her men, and her career is on the rise).

Now, you could say that kids give meaning too, yeah, but those kids will grow up and what you will do then + nowadays in a lot of cases ,where men wants to dominate the whole relationship (where he doesn't let his women to work)  and they don't have kids the 'kids will give meaning to your life" is out of question.

Here is a relevant thing here.  Women have to do a really big gamble here, because she needs to have an insanely big trust in her men, that he will be a good husband and won't fuck over their relationship, won't leave her for another women, will stay with her when she gets pregnant etc, because she is sacrificing her career, and imagine spending 10-15 years on a relationship , where you didn't imporve anything on your career and then you need to start everything from scratch.

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

A father & mother brings different skill sets to the relationship. As far as a child is concerned, the relationship with the mother is more intimate because the child is the same body as the mother. No one can provide the comfort of a mother to her children. A mother is simply more nurturing and loving to the fragile psyche of the child. 

I agree when it comes to the child being under 2 years old, but when it comes after that it comes down to who has better traits for staying home with the kid and that can mean feminine traits of course, but masculine traits are not exclusive to men, and feminine traits are not exclusive to women, so the correct thing to say here is that , lets evaluate who is more applicable for staying home based on who has what career and who has what traits.

Roles shouldn't be given based on sex, it should be evaluated in a more nuanced way, where we look at the set of traits that person has.

 

56 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

But that's not out of choice, but scarcity. 

The same logic is applicable to men and I already outlined the argument why it is silly to equate 'dating up' only to women (all depends on what variables you are looking at). If a high quality men has 1000 options to choose from he will obviously pick the option that is the "best" according to him, not surprising that women will choose the best from all the options she have.

56 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

She will not date men of similar social standing as her, if she has the obvious choice to date up. 

Your article disagrees with you.

56 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Said no man. ?

Said by all men, who wants to dominate and lead their relationship alone, without the cooperating with their women . Imagine being a men where you want to dominate your relationship and the main leverage that you bring to the table is your money and your resources and your women starts to outearn you, having a higher intelligence than you, and you eventually lose all your leverage and you either have to lose your leader role or have to leave.

+ most men are not equipped to be in more feminine roles (taking care of the house, cooking ,cleaning , taking care of the kids), and they don't want to be forced into those positions, therefore they will rather choose a women, who is not earning that much money, who don't have a successful career, and who is not that intelligent (because that makes dating even harder, she will be more likely to see through your games, most men [and people in general] have too much of a fragile ego to stomach, that they are the less intelligent in their relationship).

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by zurew

[Bobby_2021]

10 hours ago, StarStruck said:

I'm on my phone right now so I can't give lengthy answers.

I give all the lengthy answers on my phone. Take responsibility bruuv. 

[Roy]

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I would love to settle with a rich woman from a rich family. That would be such a lottery.

Not that any of them were "rich", but my past 4 girlfriends have all earned more money than me, and I make a pretty decent living for someone who didn't go to school for anything. One of them was likely double my income (she was a radiohost). None of them gave a crap or brought it up even once in the combined years I was with all of them. I guess they liked me for who I was and how I treated them. You have to find the right person to be with that has the same value system as you. I make sure to filter and not waste time for shallow girls that have expectations. One of my basic shit tests on a first date is to get a coffee or treat or whatever, and see if she hesitates to pay or split.

Not to mention in this day and age women are all more educated than men from my generation and thus earn better money. The culture is changing where it's not as big a deal anymore if the woman makes more, it's like so what? The worst thing you can do as a guy is be insecure about it and sabotage your own relationship. I feel bad for the dudes dumb enough to make that an issue.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Roy

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, zurew said:

don't know what social circles you are talking about "getting accepted into", but in general women are more outgoing and have more friends than men.

 This was the initial point of discussion..... about social skills.

11 hours ago, zurew said:

We are getting back to the point where we talk about that each side gives value,

A woman with a hot ass may be providing some value, but it's not like she has to grow herself and acquire skills to provide value.

And bro it's not like every women on yacths are 10s. Almost any women can look beautiful in the eyes of most men given she is in her 20s if she takes good care of herself and not be a fatass.  Look at Jeff Bezos wife for example. She is ugly af. 

The initial point was about

 "why women get accepted into social circles easily".

The yacht situation was one such example. 

I can easily assert the nuanced point that men have more social skills than women, yet men are less social than women.

Having a sexy ass is not a social skill. Having an ass will get plenty of people to be around you. 

If men have plenty of people around him, it's not because of his ass. It's because of the value, money, status etc. 

If you get it, you get it and if you don't, you don't. 

I explained it as clearly as humanly possible. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

57 minutes ago, Roy said:

One of my basic shit tests on a first date is to get a coffee or treat or whatever, and see if she hesitates to pay or split.

We on this forum shouldn't simply fight on values but take into account how people came to have different values. It depends a lot on the environment in which one is bought up in. 

From my culture, it's a big turn off for many women to require them to split the bill, generally speaking. I don't think the bill is such a huge deal no matter whatever way it goes.

It depends a lot on the situation you find yourself in. 

It should be even more fun, if you ask her to pay the entire bill and see how she responds. ? 

[Bobby_2021]

10 hours ago, zurew said:

Your article disagrees with you.

How so?

10 hours ago, zurew said:

The same logic is applicable to men and I already outlined the argument why it is silly to equate 'dating up' only to women (all depends on what variables you are looking at). If a high quality men has 1000 options to choose from he will obviously pick the option that is the "best" according to him, not surprising that women will choose the best from all the options she have

So what? Does this imply that my argument is wrong? 

Women date up on social standing or status. 

Men date up based on beauty, age feminine traits etc. 

If he can be with 23 year old, instead of 29 year old girl, he will go for the younger one in most cases. 

That's perfectly correct. 

Two things can be correct at the same time. That's okay.

I don't understand what you are trying to say by bringing up a different argument. It has nothing to do with my argument. 

10 hours ago, zurew said:

agree when it comes to the child being under 2 years old,

So you already agree that your mom should to sacrifice her career for two years just to take care of you. 

Why should she sacrifice her career? That's so oppressive and patriarchal to require women to sacrifice her career. 

Now realistically speaking the age is more like 10-12 years old.

No one can understand their child better than their mother. This is true because they used to be one body. Humans beings are so closely attached to their mothers.

Article: Child's Cognitive Health directly linked to time spend with mother. 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/03/childs-cognitive-skills-linked-time-with-mother

"Now a new study suggests that the answer – at least for mothers – should be as much as they can afford to give."

Denying a child the time to spend with the mother will negatively affect their IQ and social skills later into their life. 

A father role become more important as the child gets older. For a father, physical proximity is not as necessary to impact the life of the child in a positive way. 

[something_else]

18 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You will not see men earning 100k speeding time with senior executives men earning 1M$+.

 

 

 

Idk, that's quite a generalisation. If you go to big melting pot cities like London you see people with pretty vast differences in earnings together. 

If you are an interesting person or have a lot in common it compensates a lot for differences in earnings. As an example you could see a 1M$+ earner hanging out with dudes from his marital arts gym who are making £30k a year, but they have something else in common so it works.

Or even people from the same company. When I go down to London I've spent lots of time with people from my company including my boss (the CEO), and his brother who is a multimillionaire that was talking about casually losing £400k on an investment.

The idea that guys earning $100k won't spend time with executives earning $1M+ is kind of an old notion. Nowadays you have much more diverse groups of people who all earn different amounts. Especially with very flatly structured companies where everyone is generally much more equal.

Edited March 7, 2023 by something_else

[StarStruck]

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I give all the lengthy answers on my phone. Take responsibility bruuv. 

How you do it when you want to quote separate parts of a post?

[something_else]

7 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

How you do it when you want to quote separate parts of a post?

 

Oh, yea that's a complete nightmare, I dont do any more than one, or maybe two, quotes when I post from my phone, it's just too awkward.

[Devin]

 

[Bobby_2021]

15 hours ago, StarStruck said:

How you do it when you want to quote separate parts of a post?

This feature(quote this)pops  up when you select a part of the text and long press it. Comes in handy. 

[StarStruck]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This feature(quote this)pops  up when you select a part of the text and long press it. Comes in handy. 

Thanks but I can't quote multiple lines from one and the same post.

------

Pff, this guy is dropping truth bombs. If you are metaphysically strong his videos are terrific.

He also had a video about the gnostic Cathars and the origin of romanticism and that blew my mind.

This guy is very high conscious. Definitely some major SD yellow patterns although he is probably SD orange. His 2-3 minute videos has more value and truth than some other guys (SD orange-green) 2-3 hour videos on dating. He also had videos on nondating which are phenomenal.

One has to be high conscious to pack so much knowledge and  value in such short videos. He is a rare breed in youtube psychology.

Edited March 8, 2023 by StarStruck

[Bobby_2021]

@StarStruck 

I don't have nay serious knowledge about red pill content, but here is my presumption. 

Red pill is much like religion. It's tenets were made by people who has real understandings of intergender dynamics, but it's followers are blindly regurgitating it's content with *no understanding*, perhaps ideologically motivated and abuses it Selfishly.

People who opposes this(atheists) are usually better than the average red pill guy, but still are ideologically notivated devoid of any real understanding of the underlying principles of intergender dynamics.

Many stable, sane and well respected people in society subscribe partially to red pill ideology or atleast to some parts of it. Because it captures core truths of female nature, which are usually not politically correct. But they will never admit it in public and would rather prefer to have their image to be woke/neutral.

Which is why red pill ideology is not merely a fringe ideological eco chamber and remains in the mainstream. 

[Devin]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Thanks but I can't quote multiple lines from one and the same post.

------

Pff, this guy is dropping truth bombs. If you are metaphysically strong his videos are terrific.

He also had a video about the gnostic Cathars and the origin of romanticism and that blew my mind.

This guy is very high conscious. Definitely some major SD yellow patterns although he is probably SD orange. His 2-3 minute videos has more value and truth than some other guys (SD orange-green) 2-3 hour videos on dating. He also had videos on nondating which are phenomenal.

One has to be high conscious to pack so much knowledge and  value in such short videos. He is a rare breed in youtube psychology.

This guy is fairly new but I will guess he's going to get quite popular. This also fits perfectly with the blue pillers war cry that "men need to keep working for the relationship", like why isn't it just natural for men to be romantic all the time, or for women to just love natural men?

Edited March 8, 2023 by Devin