Women treat MEN the way men treat JOBS: how relationship goals change the dating

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:29 PM, supremeyingyang said:

Too simplistic. What do you think?

It's just a 6 min video that shares something that many men struggle to understand. You wouldn't expect it to reveal the secrets of the universe per se. 

Women/male feminists will dismiss the point of the video simply because of the "vibe" without actually listening to the actual content of the video nor discussing what's being said.

It actually ties down well with my earlier post explaining why men want submissive exactly like an employee is submissive to the employer. Generally I think guy is trying to communicate important stuff in a decent manner. 

[supremeyingyang]

36 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

It's just a 6 min video that shares something that many men struggle to understand. You wouldn't expect it to reveal the secrets of the universe per se.

Fair. We agree that the average men will benefit from this Video. However, we are both factual not average in knowledge, so therefore I expect a higher quality while I can at the same time assume it'll help the average men (if he does not go extreme which I assume here as most man are moderates).

36 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Women/male feminists will dismiss the point of the video simply because of the "vibe" without actually listening to the actual content of the video nor discussing what's being said.

Yeah, this minority of male feminists dismisses every piece of Information that does not states that men are the root of evil when it comes to gender dynamics. Do you mean women in general of female feminists?

36 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

It actually ties down well with my earlier post explaining why men want submissive exactly like an employee is submissive to the employer.

I don't find your post. I'd would rather describe it like this: high quality men don't want submission for it's own cause but they have their own agenda and want to find a mate who is 100% on board with the mission. Everything else would be stupid.

Edited March 5, 2023 by supremeyingyang
correction

[Bobby_2021]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

Most women have to do this too.

This is false equivalency. Women can improve herself out of choice. For men, getting into powerful positions is a matter of life and death. A man who cannot be of use/value is treated like shit in society. And most men inherently understand this. So they suffer like hell to get there.

And I don't claim that men have it bad overall. Who has it worse? Men or women? I don't know.

With respect to expectations from society, men have it worse. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

Women just get feelings for a man, and they want to be close to him because they feel chemistry with him.

The feelings & chemistry is not that random as you would like to think. You get feelings for chads because their conduct signals high status, playfulness etc. Men would get a lot more chemistry from women by signalling high status. 

Most women are not self aware enough to accept this. When they say that she wants an emotional, nice, kind sweet guy, she is implying that she gets a sexy hot jacked stud who also mentioned qualities like nice, kind emotional as an icing on the cake.

Women has two sets of qualities they want in men. The sexy ones and the unsexy ones. Women are unaware and hude their preferences of the sexy stuff and make it everything about unsexy stuff. 

Again, I don't expect you to see this and most probably you don't. From your perspective it's all Fallin in love in the magic of the moment. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

It’s this assumption that the man has already hit the standard that’s going to crash a relationship.

Not that he already hit the standard, but that he already surpassed the threshold the woman had for him.

Of course relationships are continuous work. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

And if your viewpoint is that women don’t contribute to relationship except for pussy… don’t expect many highly developed women who have things to contribute to come knocking on your door.

Or you can get a young 22 year old woman and develop her into her ideal self with your experience and guidance and she will play along. 

That way you get both pussy and high value. Nothing is lost. 

The thing is that by the time she matures a lot of time would have already passed which makes for worsened prospects when it comes to having children. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

A relationship is not about leverage. That’s just a transaction.

Not saying that it is, but I was responding to an argument on current dating dynamics. 

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I’m sure that that makes your girlfriend super turned on when you talk about how she doesn’t contribute anything to the relationship except her soon-decrepit pussy.

I was responding to a guy who said pussy was the main thing that gives women leverage over men. Obviously I don't agree to it. But I was discussing further points with him, not that I agree with all of it. 

[zurew]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You can argue that the average man doesn't level up and stays in him mom's basement playing video games. But even an 70th percentile man is far superior in what he brings to a relationship compared to 99 percentile woman precisely because of heavy expectations put on to you by society. 

It's dead wrong to say that women have more social skills than men simply because she has a wider network of people to talk to. 

A woman can be a complete introvert, but if she is pretty and she smiles she will get accepted into almost any social circles. Women have a low barrier of entry. Who cares about a man who stands there and smiles. He would get called a creep in no times lol. He needs to work to be a Charming dude if he doesn't have that already. 

Nope, your question was to make a comparison between an average men and women, and all my points still stand. Women in average definitely have much better social skills than men, and they have a bigger network also, they have better hygene , they have more beauty and they have more skills when it comes to cleaning and cooking, they are more emphatetic, they are better at communicating in general. Women are more social than men, thats just true in general and from that comes them having better social skills and bigger network.

I don't know what social circles you are talking about "getting accepted into", but in general women are more outgoing and have more friends than men. Men don't have friends, some men have business partners and thats basically it. An average men is pretty bad at social stuff. You are making it look like as if men won't get accepted into social circles until they earn 100k a year, going to the gym 5 times a week, develop high charisma  and other things. The fact of the matter is that men is much less outgoing in general and don't even look for friends or even if they do, they suck at it, and they have low social skills.

I don't even know what a 70% men even mean, but if you stick with the comparison of average men and women , then what you are writing there "men being far superior " is not true, I already wrote down a list of things where an average women is better compared to an average men. 

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not speaking of the things I think are the way they are, and neither does a few exceptions disprove the rule.

An opinion won't become a rule, just because you agree with it. Its not a fact, its just one kind of analysis.

The idea that men has to hit so high standards is just not true, as I already outlined, an average men can't even hit a standard that should be basic to everyone (take care of yourself, take care of your hygene, develop bare minimum social skills, dont be a schizo, cut your neckbeard) and as I already said if you look at most relationships you will see, that for most of them these things are true: dating in the (same class, same culture, same intelligence level, same  or similar finance level etc)

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

At the same time, a man with a masters degree is more than happy to be with a woman without a degree, thus even lowering the chances for women with masters degrees. 

Is it about women not wanting to date men who are lower in education than them, or is it more about men being insecure about not being as educated ,therefore not dating such women? 

Quote

The way Park explains it, men only think they know what they want — or they know what they want in theory, not what they’d choose when put to the test IRL. “Men seem to be influenced less by their ideal partner preferences and more by their emotions or feelings at the moment,” she says. “Specifically, when men were outperformed by a woman in a domain that they cared about — intelligence — they felt threatened, assessed by diminished self-ratings of masculinity, which then led them to act in a way counter to what their expressed ideal preferences were.” In other words, these guys felt way inferior in the smarter woman’s presence, and so they went rogue; they ditched their self-described dream gal for someone who didn’t best their intelligence.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/navigating-the-love-gap/201802/do-men-actually-not-want-date-intelligent-women

A lot of highly masculine men in general will want to lead the relationship and will be turned off or maybe even intimidated by if a women have a lot of factors that are all giving her a lot of leverage in a relationship. One trait could be intelligence, other could be she earning a lot of money other could be she having a successful career other could be she having a very rich family etc etc. All of those things can contribute to this and the narrative of "women just don't want to date down" is incomplete and most of the time misleading.

 

Your linked article agrees with me (that people date in the (same class, same culture, same intelligence level, same  or similar finance level etc):

Quote

"Both men and women prefer someone who is of similar education,” says Professor Michele Belot, professor of economics and director of the Behaviour Laboratory at the University of Edinburgh. “When you look at marriage data and you see that people are married to similar people, you don’t know if it’s because they are more likely to meet similar people, or they actually want similar people.” What she and a colleague did instead was look at a pool of speed daters who had been put together. “You can actually see who they pick between people who have different types of education. That indicated there is a preference for similarity. I think it’s almost a biological thing. There is very strong preference for similarities along a range of attributes, such as age, height, occupation, interests.”

Again if you attached to the idea of "women will only date up" then I can make arguments why men will only date up as well (this game is so silly, because it all depends on what variable you are focusing on, so I dont know why some of you guys are so attached to this idea).

Men will mostly only date women who are more attracting compared to them, men will mostly only date women who are younger than them, men will mostly only date women who have a lower bodycount than them, therefore men date up and women date down on all those things.

 

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Men have real problems that need real tangible solutions. It's met by by working on yourself and acquiring skills.

Therapy where you pay thousands of dollars for some woman to nod to the things you say is particularly of prime importance. It's nice to have, but not necessary at all. You are overinflating the importance of "opening up" which is nothing more than some wishy washy hippy value. 

If men don't have real solutions then they are happy with gym, some fresh air and some hobbies, passions. 

Men kill themselves more because of unmet expectations. Opening up isn't a solution. The solution is to reduce the expectations. But meeting tough expectations also forces you to level up significantly. It's a double edged sword.

The advice of "just work on yourself bro" is the same low quality advice that brought us here, and there are more things that clearly needs to be done here. Tell me how people are going to work on themselves and become a high value males, when they have 100 unresolved traumas that are making them act impulsively and unconsciously? You can't work on your lifepurpose, when you don't even have your bare minimum things resolved and done with yourself. You don't have to go to a therapist, you can try other healing methods, but as long as men will pretend to be this stoic purely rational humans, men won't be able to massively improve themselves on a big global scale, because their traumas need to be resolved first.

You have a strawmen version of what therapy is, and what it is about. The fact of the matter is that men don't have anyone to talk to and men are pretty bad at showing and communicating their feelings. All men are human and humans have feelings and if you ignored and play the stoic rational game, when deep down you are fucked, then you are ending up with a society what we have right now, where males pretending to be "rational" but at the same time quietly kill themselves, because they think talking about their problems is gay or weak and other "rational" men will kill other men for a random passing comment that is targeted at their girlfriend or if someone steps on their shoe they immediately start a fight. Men a lot of times confuse being a pride defending tough guy with simply being emotional and triggered and they do a lot of rationalization afterwards to try to resolve their outburts in themselves .

Men kill themselves for a wide variety of reasons , one of them is because of certain unresolved traumas and certain indoctrinations (some of them coming from redpillers), where they put a = between what value they have on the dating market vs what value they have outside of that. Because of that most men have massive self esteem issues and can't differentiate their self love from what they can output and again that comes from confusing dating market value with self value.

The other thing is that most men is being indoctrinated with other shit like "you have to solve everything by yourself all the time, and it is weak to ask for help or to collaborate solving certain problems". Again, men in general have almost no real friends and most of the time pretend to be a stoic problem solver who needs to solve everything alone, but that is just dumb and not necessary all the time. We live in a society and we can utilize and collaborate with each other and help each other to solve certain problems and pride shouldn't be more important than solving some of these problems. If men can develop their social skills and start to build real friendships with each other more, then most trauma healing won't be that important anymore + they will be able to solve much more problems + again men needs to realize that asking for help is sometimes necessary and much more better, because it is sometimes indeed necessary to solve certain problems and those times you have to put your ego and pride aside.

 

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Listen, In this kind of wretched economy, staying at home washing plates and changing diapers of your kids is much better than grinding and selling your soul to some exploitative corporation for 60 hours a week.

You are making it sound like changing diapers is a huge burden and providing resources is a cake walk.

I will happily stay at home watching YouTube videos, washing plates, reading, and working on myself if my partner can handle all the financial aspects. I consider it a huge advantage. 

You can say that, but most men are still incapable to do any of those things. If there is a household where a women outearns the men, chances are high that that women will still have to do most cleaning and cooking and other stuff, simply because men can't do those things. If we were to switch the roles I am telling you, women would be much more capable of doing the men roles than men doing the women roles. Men won't do any cooking and cleaning and taking care of the kids, but most women will be able to do a job.

But that aside, it is not easy to take care of the household and to take care of the kids. You have to cook and clean everything and kids are really time consuming and needs a lot of attention and care. You need to be their friend, their parent, their psychologist at the same time keep the house clean, cook and take care of every other social stuff (like going to meetings in school, planning all the holidays and a ton of other stuff). You have to drive the kids to school, and help them solve their homework, if they get sick you need to drive them to the doctor and give even more attention to them and encourage them etc.

The other big thing that comes with staying home and taking care of all that stuff is that you are doing that same repetitive thing, that is alone most of the time not really that meaningful, but the husband if he is successful but even if he is average at his career, he can harvest all the compliments from all the relatives and all the friends and almost no one cares to compliment or to acknowledge the work the mother does at home. + the mother has to sacrifice her career for all of that, so none of these things are easy.

Most men will go to work and then get home to a clean house, where lunch or dinner is ready, where all the problems are solved and where everything have already been taken care of.

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by zurew

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is false equivalency. Women can improve herself out of choice. For men, getting into powerful positions is a matter of life and death. A man who cannot be of use/value is treated like shit in society. And most men inherently understand this. So they suffer like hell to get there.

And I don't claim that men have it bad overall. Who has it worse? Men or women? I don't know.

With respect to expectations from society, men have it worse. 

I’m not even talking about what others expect because anyone could choose to buck them and simply find people who will accept them as they are.

I’m talking about the survival need to develop one’s self into a functional adult. That includes making money, building a social network, and becoming a a decent person. And yes, women have to do that just as much. 

The feelings & chemistry is not that random as you would like to think. You get feelings for chads because their conduct signals high status, playfulness etc. Men would get a lot more chemistry from women by signalling high status. 

I rarely get feelings for men that other people describe as Chads. I usually find myself attracted to average guys. And tend to find myself attracted to men who have a couple dashes of Feminine energy to them.

Most women are not self aware enough to accept this. When they say that she wants an emotional, nice, kind sweet guy, she is implying that she gets a sexy hot jacked stud who also mentioned qualities like nice, kind emotional as an icing on the cake.

Women generally aren’t as attracted to guys who are jacked. I honestly don’t find big muscles that attractive.

They did some studies on the body type that women find the most attractive and it was like the Ryan Reynolds body type.

Trim with broad shoulders and a narrow waist and hips. And strong but not jacked. 

Women has two sets of qualities they want in men. The sexy ones and the unsexy ones. Women are unaware and hude their preferences of the sexy stuff and make it everything about unsexy stuff. 

There is no separate category here. The thing that makes a guys physicality attractive is that his personality shines through his physical form.

Good looks certainly help. But an average guy whose magnetic energy shines through his appearance will spark a very delicious kind of chemistry in the right woman.

While there could be a total hottie on paper with an awful personality, and it will destroy his looks in the eyes of many women. Though a woman who has been traumatized might find herself drawn to him because of seeking familiar circumstances.

Again, I don't expect you to see this and most probably you don't. From your perspective it's all Fallin in love in the magic of the moment. 

I’m just telling you that the men I’ve been head over heals about were generally not the most attractive or the most successful or the most socially graceful.

It’s not really logical or meritocratic. I just interact with a guy platonically over time as a part of my social circle and am surprised to find myself feeling drawn to him.

It’s a feeling in the center of the chest when I think of him. And I really hone in on little imperfections and idiosyncratic behaviors that he does, and those are the traits I start finding attractive because of my feelings for him.

Not that he already hit the standard, but that he already surpassed the threshold the woman had for him.

Of course relationships are continuous work. 

Or you can get a young 22 year old woman and develop her into her ideal self with your experience and guidance and she will play along.

That way you get both pussy and high value. Nothing is lost. 

My husband is 12 years older than me. I met him when I was 20 and he was 32.

And he was under the impression that it was his job to train me up and mold me into his expectations. And it always created huge issues. I hated the relationship because he was trying to act more like a father figure and always trying to teach/criticize/control.

And it was so unearned for him to think he knew better. In so many ways, he did not.

And there was simply no way to feel relaxed around him because he was always nitpicking and nagging about something that I should or shouldn’t be doing.

So, we’ve been separated for 4 years… initiated by me. And when he was upset about my not wanting a romantic relationship with him anymore, he tearfully admitted to me that he viewed his role as the wiser one to scold me into becoming how he expected me to be. And he apologized for having been wrong.

But it was already too late. I told him a zillion times during the course of our relationship that I didn’t like it and to stop. And it was shocked Pickachu face when I finally severed it after 9 years of tolerating it.

We’re still married and live together to raise our kids. And we get along much better now that we’re not romantically involved.

The thing is that by the time she matures a lot of time would have already passed which makes for worsened prospects when it comes to having children. 

You’re meant to mature together.

But if you’re looking to have kids, you have to find someone in child-bearing range… which under 35 in the ideal as past 35 it’s considered a geriatric pregnancy and problems can start cropping up. And almost definitely under 45.

But if you’re in your 30s and go looking for an early 20-something  because you think you can mold her into what you want and parent her, don’t be surprised when she goes into rebellious mode.

Not saying that it is, but I was responding to an argument on current dating dynamics. 

I was responding to a guy who said pussy was the main thing that gives women leverage over men. Obviously I don't agree to it. But I was discussing further points with him, not that I agree with all of it. 

You phrased it as your point of view.

 

[Arcangelo]

On 3/4/2023 at 7:32 PM, Bobby_2021 said:

while a 23 year old pussy can leverage over most men.

Tell ME about it

[Devin]

On 3/5/2023 at 6:07 AM, zurew said:

it can say that it is a women thing, but it doesn't make the argument that you were making (that women treating men almost purely in a transactional way and always looking for a better opportunity).

This article argues, that women in average have more empathy in general and women in general are people pleasers and because of that they won't talk about their needs and problems much and  they will rather just leave, because they will find that easier that to talk about their problems. That is a wildly different from the argument you were trying to build up.

But I would say even if I take the article's claim for granted, even then I would disagree that it is a women thing, beause empathy is not exclusive to women and to make this problem a sex specific problem is misleading and not precise. Empathy in general could be developed and most people (regardless of their sex) could be brought up in a way ,where they will end up having more empathy.

       These women aren't treating the relationship in a transactional way? Aren't they leaving because they're not getting what they want? That's transactional.

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Devin said:

These women aren't treating the relationship in a transactional way? Aren't they leaving because they're not getting what they want? That's transactional.

Thats a very weird way and very reductionistic way to use the word "transactional". Your article said, that they were too much of a people pleaser, and thats literally the opposite of waiting for an exact return for what you give.  

You are trying very hard here to paint women as purely rational, almost sociopathic beings, who can't get attached to anyone and only driven by resources and money.  An exchange of value will always happen, and it will happen naturally, without a person consciously calculating and evaluating all the contribution that their partner gave, before they make a contribution to their partner.

If we were to use the word transactional the same way you defined it above, then literally all relationships from all end are transactional. Why do you think people leave any relationship? Because they get all the things they want from that relationship, and they are totally satisfied with their relationship or they don't? You are trying very hard to make this a women thing, when this is a human thing. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by zurew

[StarStruck]

@zurew you really need to get off the SJW cock carrousel and see that males and females have different desires and expectations in relationships 

[zurew]

24 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

you really need to get off the SJW cock carrousel and see that males and females have different desires and expectations in relationships 

You need to get off from slurping Tate and F&F content for a second and think one time in your life from the female perspective as well.

You literally did nothing so far, but just reiterating brainded redpill talkingpoints and haven't responded to anything I said.

I don't know where you saw, where I implied that women and men don't have different desires and expectation in a relationship, in fact I did the opposite like multiple times, where I made the arguments why its silly to use arguments that you used "women date up and men date down" when men and women desire different things and the evaluation of all those things will be totally depended on what variable you will use as the standard to judge all things by.

Its very easy, there are variables where women date up, and there are variables where men date up.

Edited March 6, 2023 by zurew

[something_else]

8 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

@zurew you really need to get off the SJW cock carrousel and see that males and females have different desires and expectations in relationships 

 

So empathetic 

11 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

I'm an extreme empath

 

 

[Devin]

21 minutes ago, zurew said:

Thats a very weird way and very reductionistic way to use the word "transactional". Your article said, that they were too much of a people pleaser, and thats literally the opposite of waiting for an exact return for what you give.  

You are trying very hard here to paint women as purely rational, almost sociopathic beings, who can't get attached to anyone and only driven by resources and money.  An exchange of value will always happen, and it will happen naturally, without a person consciously calculating and evaluating all the contribution that their partner gave, before they make a contribution to their partner.

If we were to use the word transactional the same way you defined it above, then literally all relationships from all end are transactional. Why do you think people leave any relationship? Because they get all the things they want from that relationship, and they are totally satisfied with their relationship or they don't? You are trying very hard to make this a women thing, when this is a human thing. 

         That article was from a lesbian group, of course they're going to spin it, I only posted that to show they admit they divorce twice as much as gay men.

         It's not a sociopathic level, that's you being reductionist, the fact that women aren't selfless does not make them sociopaths. And again this video is not speaking about resources and money.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Devin

[zurew]

Just now, Devin said:

 That article was from a lesbian group, of course they're going to spin it, I only posted that to show they admit they divorce twice as much as gay men.

         It's not a sociopathic level, that's you being reductionist, the fact that women aren't  selfless does not make them sociopaths. And again this video is not speaking about resources and money.

So you are picking and choosing from articles the stuff that you agree with and totally exclude everything that you don't agree with, thanks god that you are not doing motivated reasoning and cherrypicking.

I don't know why you are referring back to the video, when I responded to your reply about "women being totally transactional" and at the same time implying ,that men doesn't.

[Devin]

6 minutes ago, something_else said:

So empathetic 

 

         I worry about men like Zurew, he is obviously very compassionate, but these are the guys that get trampled on by women.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Devin

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

So you are picking and choosing from articles the stuff that you agree with and totally exclude everything that you don't agree with, thanks god that you are not doing motivated reasoning and cherrypicking.

I don't know why you are referring back to the video, when I responded to your reply about "women being totally transactional" and at the same time implying ,that men doesn't.

          Women aren't "totally" transactional, the "transactional" aspect isn't the point of the video, it's about how what women want from relationships change more than mens, the transactional discussion was just related.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Devin

[zurew]

32 minutes ago, Devin said:

I worry about men like Zurew, he is obviously very compassionate, but these are the guys that get trampled on by women.

I will make sure to learn all the lessons from Tate's pimping course, how to handle these heartless , transactional women.

[something_else]

34 minutes ago, Devin said:

         I worry about men like Zurew, he is obviously very compassionate, but these are the guys that get trampled on by women.

 

I was taking the piss out of @StarStruck for saying "I'm an extreme empath" earlier in the thread, wasn't talking about @zurew  

You'd be surprised how far a healthy dose of compassion will get you towards having healthy relationships with women. Don't believe all the red pill propaganda you read online.

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

I will make sure to learn all the lessons from Tate's pimping course, how to handle these heartless , transactional women.

        I recommend against Tate, the Psychologist in the video seems good though.

[Devin]

        Actually my favorite recommendation is the classic "Men are from Mars Women are from Venus" but it needs supplementation if you're going to date postmodernists like I presume.

[Devin]

12 minutes ago, something_else said:

I was taking the piss out of @StarStruck for saying "I'm an extreme empath" earlier in the thread, wasn't talking about @zurew  

You'd be surprised how far a healthy dose of compassion will get you towards having healthy relationships with women. Don't believe all the red pill propaganda you read online.

       The compassion isn't my qualm, it's the believing women are selfless. Of course be compassionate but that includes being compassionate to yourself, believing women are selfless leads to putting her wants in front of yours. You're both selfish, compromise and work together for what you BOTH want.