Stage Yellow Right Wing Discussion

[Danioover9000]

@DocWatts

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

No disagreements here.

Hell, considering how much value I've gotten from someone like Heidegger, who's both one of the most brilliant philosophers to ever live and also someone who was sympathetic to Nazi ideology, it would be hypocritical of me to suggest otherwise.

That said, in my mind the degree to which their area of expertise can be compartmentalized from their bad political takes matters a lot here.

Also the question of whether by supporting the person in question you're also supporting thier political causes when you buy their books or watch their content also matters, a question which would be far simpler if Peterson was someone from a bygone era rather than someone who's influencing events in the present day.

   I also mostly agree here.

   The issue also is epistemology as well, I don't know the official term for it, but basically the epistemic issue is one of first impressions. For example, heard of Korean BBQs? There's a restaurant I've been to several times with some of my family, and the BBQ side was great, but each time we never tried their hot pot menu. So, we decided to invite a friend, who never heard of and also like us hadn't tried hot pots. I don't know if it's just bad luck and bad timing, or bad waiter or bad equipment(This restaurant you get to cook the main ingredients yourself), but our hot pot experience was negative, food was taking too long to cook, noodles were half cooked, a too friendly/energetic waiter which bugged my friend a bit. Afterwards, my friend never joined us for future visits of this restaurant. Next future visits, despite the bad experience I decided to give a few more tries with hot pot, and actually it was pretty good, just had to git gud at cooking the pot, BBG still the better option though, and unfortunately I may never get to convince my friend to try out the BBQ as that hot pot catastrophe is still there in his mind, somewhere.

   So here, how it relates back, is when the person in question has little to no knowledge of self help, and is first exposure was through Jordan Peterson's body of work, I can see how that can be an issue, especially if some can't make that distinction between psychology and politics, and just blindly copy and follow Jordan Peterson's worldview. I'm also just a bit sympathetic to his plight, as I've suffered similarly to him and can somewhat relate to being in suffering which can cloud one's perception of the world and others with this tinge of misanthropy and Nihilism. Not a good place to be in. 

[How to be wise]

The reason why Stage Yellow conservatives is possible is because stage yellow contains all the previous levels within it. When someone moves to a higher stage, they transcend AND include the previous level. Hence stage Orange (conservatism) exists within Tier 2. As Ken Wilber says about development: “All of the lower is in the higher, but not all of the higher is in the lower.” This is called a holarchical structure.

[Leo Gura]

Conservative and liberal are not levels. Be careful with that.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Majed]

@Leo Gura can you elaborate ? because i'm struggling very much with that. more developed people tend to lean liberal because they're more aware. however many educated people like jordan peterson and others are conservatives. it's quite confusing. many rappers who are very uneducated have a liberal attitude towards sex for example. struggling to make sense of it. 

[Leo Gura]

@Majed As I said, conservative and liberal are not developmental stages. You should treat them as personality types, which cut across all stages of development, similar to introvert and extrovert. There is no introvert stage. There is no feminine stage. There is no gay stage. There is no entrepreneur stage.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jannes]

Just now, Majed said:

@Leo Gura can you elaborate ? because i'm struggling very much with that. more developed people tend to lean liberal because they're more aware. however many educated people like jordan peterson and others are conservatives. it's quite confusing. many rappers who are very uneducated have a liberal attitude towards sex for example. struggling to make sense of it. 

Both conservatism and liberalism has its place. A developed conservatist and liberalist knows his strengths and weaknesses of his position while an undeveloped conservatist or liberalist is too idealistic about his position and takes it too far. In theory you could have a person who is both conservatist and liberalist at the same time if he developed his conservatist and liberalist worldview to the full extend so that he takes just the gems out of each worldview and leaves room for the other position where one side is flawed. 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura thank you 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Majed

[How to be wise]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Majed As I said, conservative and liberal are not developmental stages. You should treat them as personality types, which cut across all stages of development, similar to introvert and extrovert. There is no introvert stage. There is no feminine stage. There is no gay stage. There is no entrepreneur stage.

There is a big problem with this theory. If you look at very urban areas of the country, the major cities, they mostly vote liberal, while the rural countryside mostly votes for conservatives. Plus, if you look at the values of conservatism in the west, they mostly correlate with Orange, while the progressive values mostly correlate with Green. This is undeniable.

[TrustTheProcess]

@Leo Gura you can have a conservative who has certain stage yellow tendencies. still, i think people i have met in this category tend to have some major green blind spots, which would make it hard to fully characterize them as “stage yellow”. 

 

it is a false equivalency to say that trying to map conservativism vs liberalism on spiral dynamics is comparable to trying to map sexuality or personality types to stages. conservativism and liberalism are based in values that do in fact map onto spiral dynamics, with liberal/progressive values mapping higher than conservative values

Edited March 5, 2023 by TrustTheProcess

[DocWatts]

Just my two cents, but I would use caution with saying that somebody is yellow or is green, since it locks in a tendency to misuse Spiral Dynamics as a personal development model ala the Enneagram or the Nine Stages of Ego Development.

We're more than our respective meta-ideologies, and Spiral Dynamics is much better used as sociological model for thinking about the dialectics behind how value systems come to be embodied in societies.

Thus it's much more productive to think in terms of ideologies or social movements as being Green or Yellow, than it is to couple stages to individuals, in my view. Or to put it more concretely, much more precise to say that someone has a Blue or Green understanding of a particular issue or idea, than it is to say that someone like Jordan Peterson is (insert color here).

(For what it's worth I've fallen into the trap of misusing Spiral Dynamics in this way as well so I'm no exception to this; something I'm working to be more mindful of).

Edited March 5, 2023 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:39 AM, How to be wise said:

There is a big problem with this theory. If you look at very urban areas of the country, the major cities, they mostly vote liberal, while the rural countryside mostly votes for conservatives. Plus, if you look at the values of conservatism in the west, they mostly correlate with Orange, while the progressive values mostly correlate with Green. This is undeniable.

It's not a problem at all.

Spiral stages  will vary geographically because geography is a huge factor in development.

Liberal and conservative are RELATIVE! All American's deepest conservatives are liberals relative to Afghanistan.

On 3/5/2023 at 7:51 AM, TrustTheProcess said:

@Leo Gura you can have a conservative who has certain stage yellow tendencies. still, i think people i have met in this category tend to have some major green blind spots, which would make it hard to fully characterize them as “stage yellow”. 

Yes, of course. A solid Yellow mind is very rare.

Quote

it is a false equivalency to say that trying to map conservativism vs liberalism on spiral dynamics is comparable to trying to map sexuality or personality types to stages. conservativism and liberalism are based in values that do in fact map onto spiral dynamics, with liberal/progressive values mapping higher than conservative values

The issue is that liberal and conservative are relative. And conservative values are still operative at higher levels. Just the more healthy forms of conservatism.

If you have a conservative temperment, that is not going to change as you evolve up the Spiral. You're not going to turn into a liberal. So yes, it is like a personality type.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not a problem at all.

Spiral stages  will vary geographically because geography is a huge factor in development.

Liberal and conservative are RELATIVE! All American's deepest conservatives are liberals relative to Afghanistan.

Yes, or course. A solid Yellow mind is very rare.

The issue is that liberal and conservative are relative. And conservative values are still operative at higher levels. Just the more healthy forms of conservatism.

If you have a conservative temperment, that is not going to change as you evolve up the Spiral. You're not going to turn into a liberal. So yes, it is like a personality type.

When you say healthy forms of conservatism, do you mean ones that are moderately conservative as oppose to those on the far-right?

[Spiral]

The opposite of conservative is progressive.

Conservatives typically are quite liberal. Liberal and conservative are both right wing.

While stage yellow is right wing it’s technically more similar to stage green progressivism/socialism than some stage blue conservativism.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Spiral

[Danioover9000]

@Spiral

48 minutes ago, Spiral said:

The opposite of conservative is progressive.

Conservatives typically are quite liberal. Liberal and conservative are both right wing.

While stage yellow is right wing it’s technically more similar to stage green progressivism/socialism than some stage blue conservativism.

   I don't think so. It's still, fundamentally, in the nature of the mind, conservative minds are different to liberal minds. Progressives/socialists are a subset off of the liberal mind, so while you are partly right in saying progressive  vs conservatives, actually progressive/social minds are a more niche type of mind even in liberal mind standards. Actually, common sense liberal minds are more in conflict with progressives than conservatives, because of the internet factor and other developmental factors!

   Some conservatives can be liberal minded, true, but requires further context.

   No, Spiral Dynamics stages of development, by Don Beck and Claire Graves, is a modal for human cultural values over time. It's got little to do directly with politics, and no political group has any monopoly of Spiral Dynamics. Most political groups here are mostly at tier 1 cognitive development, they have no idea what a real stage yellow value system looks in  n individual/group or society. Such a stage yellow valued person/group is and can be mistaken for a radical group similar to progressives/socialists, however they are really that advanced in cognition that it's insulting to consider any political group having monopoly on these terms.

[Danioover9000]

@Hardkill

On 3/6/2023 at 2:04 AM, Hardkill said:

When you say healthy forms of conservatism, do you mean ones that are moderately conservative as oppose to those on the far-right?

   Grounded in common sense and IRL reality. But of course, all that can be relative, but still, grounded in IRL and especially not in the internet, which adds to the confusion and bigotry of both sides involved.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

On 3/6/2023 at 1:33 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's not a problem at all.

Spiral stages  will vary geographically because geography is a huge factor in development.

Liberal and conservative are RELATIVE! All American's deepest conservatives are liberals relative to Afghanistan.

Yes, or course. A solid Yellow mind is very rare.

The issue is that liberal and conservative are relative. And conservative values are still operative at higher levels. Just the more healthy forms of conservatism.

If you have a conservative temperment, that is not going to change as you evolve up the Spiral. You're not going to turn into a liberal. So yes, it is like a personality type.

   So true, hard agree here.