Anima Issue in Men - Marie Louise Von Franz

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald Thing is found is that emotions are actually outside of me.If im going to say they are internal then ill be defined by my emotional states.

Okay probably i was only around feminine guys..

 

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Emerald Thing is found is that emotions are actually outside of me.If im going to say they are internal then ill be defined by my emotional states.

Okay probably i was only around feminine guys..

No, emotions are definitely inside of you. They occur in the nervous system.

It’s important to be able to separate the external event that triggered the emotion and the emotion itself.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald By that logic that emotions are internal,then there is no outside triggers its all happening in your nervous system and nervous system defines who you are...

I get your perspective but theres now i see missing in mine so cant talk until i clear it...

Edited March 4, 2023 by NoSelfSelf

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Yeah, of course, there are tons of resources for theory. 

I'm talking about the actual psychological work, though. 

Can it be done alone? Or, does it have to be done in the context of relationship? And, if so, which is better? Therapy or the experience of bad relationships and then learning from them? 

The thing is that there is a lot of good theory out there. But, there can be a dearth of practical data-points/good demonstrations of the application of the theory. Which is where the problematic role-models sneak in with their twisted interpretations of it. 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Emerald By that logic that emotions are internal,then there is no outside triggers its all happening in your nervous system and nervous system defines who you are...

I get your perspective but theres now i see missing in mine so cant talk until i clear it...

I see what you’re trying to say. You’re just incorrect.

Emotions don’t happen outside of you. They’re purely a bodily phenomenon.

Emotional triggers can be outside of you. But an emotional trigger is not an emotion.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Yeah, of course, there are tons of resources for theory. 

I'm talking about the actual psychological work, though. 

Can it be done alone? Or, does it have to be done in the context of relationship? And, if so, which is better? Therapy or the experience of bad relationships and then learning from them? 

The thing is that there is a lot of good theory out there. But, there can be a dearth of practical data-points/good demonstrations of the application of the theory. Which is where the problematic role-models sneak in with their twisted interpretations of it. 

It can be done alone. 

My first recommendation is to get some basic knowledge about depth Femininity and depth Masculinity from expert sources.

Then you work directly with your resistances to one or the other.

For example, when I first began this work, I had a lot of Feminine repression.

And so, when I saw qualities like emotionality as a Feminine quality, there was a resistance in me.

So, I sought to understand deeply what the nature of my resistance to emotionality was.

And I had judgments toward others about it. And I prided myself on being fairly stoic. And I had always tried to follow all the male gender norms because I was respected more for it and I was always trying to escape the Feminine. And I associated it with lack of respectability and losing control.

So, it’s about really sitting with all that discomfort around the resistance to it.

Like, “Why am I afraid of being Feminine and emotional?”

”Well, because I think emotionality is an inferior quality, so that must mean that women are inferior to men and that I’m inferior.”

And surrendering the ego and just diving so deeply into the individual and collective wounds around that thought.

And when you take that perspective you let yourself go through the beast’s innards and eventually come out the other end.

And you begin to really understand the Feminine collective wounding and how it informs your own wounding.

And men suffering from collective Feminine wounding too. 

So, the questioning around the resistance will perhaps be different. But you may find that all roads lead to Rome.

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald What is the point of doing this work, according to you? 

This sounds very theoretical to me. I don't fully see the practical relevance of this work. I mean, fine, you want to say 'rationality is masculine and emotionality is feminine and that's not inferior', but isn't it all just a word-game at the end of the day? I mean, I consider 'passion' to be masculine! If both are energies, to call all of emotionality 'feminine' is an attempt to monopolize all energy as 'feminine', right?! 

Edited March 4, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Emerald]

37 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald What is the point of doing this work, according to you? 

This sounds very theoretical to me. I don't fully see the practical relevance of this work. I mean, fine, you want to say 'rationality is masculine and emotionality is feminine and that's not inferior', but isn't it all just a word-game at the end of the day? I mean, I consider 'passion' to be masculine! If both are energies, to call all of emotionality 'feminine' is an attempt to monopolize all energy as 'feminine', right?! 

It helps you become more whole as a person and willing to express all elements of your authenticity.

You also can’t grow yourself properly until you drop resistance to both because being resistant to the Masculine or the Feminine means you’re resisting your own nature.

You stagnate the growth of both qualities if you’re in resistance to one. The Masculine flower grows from the Feminine garden. And the Feminine flower grows from the Masculine garden.

And there is no monopolization here because we all have both. But archetypally and energetically emotions are generally Feminine.

But if you Zoom into the Feminine… you find more Masculine and Feminine polarities. 

Nothing is purely Masculine or Feminine as these dual energies are the building blocks of all living and non-living systems.

Think of them like a binary code that programs all elements of reality… including the human personality.

So, the Masculine and Feminine principle are archetypes of how these energies have been observed across cultures and eras.

But within a given Feminine archetype, the Masculine is still present and vice versa.

Every iota of reality is Shiva and Shakti in  the perpetual dance of intercourse.

And if you resist this dance in yourself, your dynamism and growth will stagnate.

So, it’s really important to work into your resistances because you leave a lot of growth and magnetism on the table.

[StarStruck]

On 3-3-2023 at 5:44 AM, Emerald said:

A big part of it is to drop resistance to the Feminine principle in general.

This is a subtractive process… not an additive process. The idea is not to make yourself be Feminine but to allow what is already there by dropping resistance to and finding reverence for the Feminine principle in all people and things.

This would include qualities like vulnerability, emotionality, receptivity, surrender, non-linearity, and the non-rational.

And to be willing to see these qualities in yourself and to allow the world to see them too.

This includes developing a relationship to the depths of the Unconscious mind.

And this also means not holding on so tightly to the identity of Masculinity… even though counterintuitively this will allow you to be more in touch with the deep unpretended Masculine.

This is also a subtractive process.

So, that means not being so attached and identified with things like strength, invulnerability, unyieldingness, and rationality and allowing yourself to experience the opposite in yourself with full acceptance.

And a big part of the Feminine is internality in contrast to Masculine externality. 

So to integrate the Feminine is to make decisions from the inside… not the outside.

You consult your personal sovereignty and intuition to make decisions, and you don’t outsource the decision making process to the external world of rules, authority figures, shoulda, and should nots.

I did some anima integration in the last few days and what I really missed was self-acceptance which is a discipline of the anima I think. Anima integration really fucked me up. Self-acceptance developed me more than self-development itself. This guy explains it from a non Jungian perspective:

He doesn't talk about the anima animus directly but I think it is the same subject.

Self acceptance = anima = role of the mother

Self improvement = animus = role of the father

Looking back to my parental household: anima was missing completely

Edited March 4, 2023 by StarStruck

[universe]

Integrating the opposite of female/male energy is an important step for everyone who is looking realise their full potential. Leo has a good video about this topic as well.

Masculinity vs Femininity - Psychology Of The Male & Female Mind

@NoSelfSelf While everything can be either inside or outside you can practice to feel emotions in your body. That is what I did when I stumbled upon Emotional Mastery for the first time. Many people will have different body parts where they feel a specific emotion. But there are also similarities. Check out these body maps.

Generally, the chest area is where I would start looking. 

[spiritual memes]

I'll just leave this here...

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald How important do you think it is for two people to have the same mental-associations with 'masculinity' and 'femininity' for a relationship to work? I'd assume that it's very important. 

When we talk about 'archetypes', there comes a lot of room for argument, actually. Precisely because they vary from culture to culture. I prefer operating by my personal definitions. Because they come from practical experience. And, I find this way of relating to these concepts to be more practically useful. 

What if I meet someone who disagrees with my definitions? What should I do in that situation, according to you? 

Also, if I relate to the concepts like this, the point of doing this work becomes, to have a working masculine/feminine dynamic in a relationship. I found your way of doing it very theoretical, so I couldn't fully put my finger on your reasoning to do it. And, you're saying that the point of it is authenticity. Even that's an abstract concept to me, if I'm looking for tangible results from this work. It's a good principle to have. But, I'm trying to be more pragmatic in justifying my investment of time and energy into this work. Why this way and why not some other way to be authentic? Is how my thinking goes. 

And, what does 'authenticity' practically mean? In what context? If it's in the context of some relationship, how helpful is it, really, to sit alone in a room and conceptualize of this stuff? After all, if masculine and feminine energy are two sides of the same coin, shouldn't they be allowed to express and worked on in each other's presence? 

Edited March 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald How important do you think it is for two people to have the same mental-associations with 'masculinity' and 'femininity' for a relationship to work? I'd assume that it's very important. 

If you both valued sticking to gender roles, you’d have to be clear about what they are.

When we talk about 'archetypes', there comes a lot of room for argument, actually. Precisely because they vary from culture to culture. I prefer operating by my personal definitions. Because they come from practical experience. And, I find this way of relating to these concepts to be more practically useful. 

Archetypes specifically don’t vary from culture to culture. They are found as common patterns that cut across many cultures and eras. They are part of the anatomy of the psyche.

And there is nothing very opinion-based about the Masculine and Feminine as an energy. With enough sensitivity, you can directly experience both of these energies.

What if I meet someone who disagrees with my definitions? What should I do in that situation, according to you? 

Cultural values around Masculinity and Femininity do vary. So, if you were in a situation where that mattered, you’d have to clarify what that means to you.

Also, if I relate to the concepts like this, the point of doing this work becomes, to have a working masculine/feminine dynamic in a relationship. I found your way of doing it very theoretical, so I couldn't fully put my finger on your reasoning to do it.

It’s not theoretical at all. It’s about dropping resistance to parts of yourself. And that enables you to be more authentic and integrated.

And, you're saying that the point of it is authenticity. Even that's an abstract concept to me, if I'm looking for tangible results from this work. It's a good principle to have. But, I'm trying to be more pragmatic in justifying my investment of time and energy into this work. Why this way and why not some other way to be authentic? Is how my thinking goes.

What I’m saying is to not let a desire to fit a certain identity cause you to repress parts of yourself. It will stunt you. 

And, what does 'authenticity' practically mean? In what context?

It means to allow what is there to be there.

If it's in the context of some relationship, how helpful is it, really, to sit alone in a room and conceptualize of this stuff?

Simply conceptualizing of it isn’t helpful. You must use the concepts you learn to find which parts of yourself that you are resisting and pushing away. And then doing the emotional work of unwitting that resistance

After all, if masculine and feminine energy are two sides of the same coin, shouldn't they be allowed to express and worked on in each other's presence? 

You could do it in the context of a relationship too. But I recommend beginning solo.

That’s because lots of people are under the false impression that, in order to be attractive, they have to repress their inner opposite. And it can create more difficulty to drop the resistance to it.

 

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

I'll just leave this here...

Shame on you ?

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald What is 'masculinity' and 'femininity' according to you? Is it an energy, a pattern of behavior, an identity, a mindset, an epistemology? What is it? 

My pea-brain is getting confused by these big words. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Gesundheit2]

@mr_engineer The (Masculine and Feminine) has its roots in Chinese philosophy, specifically the Zen tradition. It is referred to as Yin-Yang, as in the famous nonduality symbol. It has also been around in Plato's philosophy. But more recently, it was popularized mainly by Carl Jung.

Essentially, Yin and Yang are the two forces that are opposites in some way, but not entirely. They are distinct enough from each other, but not completely. They interplay with each other without cancelling one another, which gives birth to this phenomenon called Life. And these two forces exist on every level that you can imagine, from microscopic to universal. They also manifest in different forms, like the psychology of a person, or the cycle of life, or just the inhalation and exhalation of air in each breath. Basically, any duality that you can perceive can be thought of as an interaction between the two polar forces of Life. The labels are interchangeable and there's not really hard distinctions between them. That's the Chinese philosophy, and it's centered around the concept of balance.

Then comes Carl Jung and starts making connections between that and the human psychology. Eventually, he came up with the Anima and Animus theory that explains one's personality as an integration of two opposite aspects that he referred to as the masculine and the feminine as they were culturally associated with gender. Now, I'm not entirely sure about this but I think that Jung understood that this cultural association is not absolute, and that it can change depending on culture. The concept is solid, as every man has to repress some woman (feminine) qualities inside himself and every women has to repress some man (masculine) qualities inside herself. This is necessary in order to be a functioning part of society. And it's always valid to refer to the counterpart with its corresponding label, because there are only two counterparts. For example, you can always say that a person who has problems managing their emotions is dealing with Anima possession, regardless of their gender. So the feminine part of their personality which is responsible for managing emotions is in their (unconscious) shadow, which is another Jungian concept. And in order to correct this problem, the person needs to consciously examine the part that is causing problems in order to make it aware, in this case the feminine, so that it leaves the shadow and enters the conscious mind. And while emotions are typically associated with females in our current mainstream culture, Anima possession can affect women as well, as neither parts of one's psychology has a gender.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@mr_engineer The (Masculine and Feminine) has its roots in Chinese philosophy, specifically the Zen tradition. It is referred to as Yin-Yang, as in the famous nonduality symbol. It has also been around in Plato's philosophy. But more recently, it was popularized mainly by Carl Jung.

Essentially, Yin and Yang are the two forces that are opposites in some way, but not entirely. They are distinct enough from each other, but not completely. They interplay with each other without cancelling one another, which gives birth to this phenomenon called Life. And these two forces exist on every level that you can imagine, from microscopic to universal. They also manifest in different forms, like the psychology of a person, or the cycle of life, or just the inhalation and exhalation of air in each breath. Basically, any duality that you can perceive can be thought of as an interaction between the two polar forces of Life. The labels are interchangeable and there's not really hard distinctions between them. That's the Chinese philosophy, and it's centered around the concept of balance.

Then comes Carl Jung and starts making connections between that and the human psychology. Eventually, he came up with the Anima and Animus theory that explains one's personality as an integration of two opposite aspects that he referred to as the masculine and the feminine as they were culturally associated with gender. Now, I'm not entirely sure about this but I think that Jung understood that this cultural association is not absolute, and that it can change depending on culture. The concept is solid, as every man has to repress some woman (feminine) qualities inside himself and every women has to repress some man (masculine) qualities inside herself. This is necessary in order to be a functioning part of society. And it's always valid to refer to the counterpart with its corresponding label, because there are only two counterparts. For example, you can always say that a person who has problems managing their emotions is dealing with Anima possession, regardless of their gender. So the feminine part of their personality which is responsible for managing emotions is in their (unconscious) shadow, which is another Jungian concept. And in order to correct this problem, the person needs to consciously examine the part that is causing problems in order to make it aware, in this case the feminine, so that it leaves the shadow and enters the conscious mind. And while emotions are typically associated with females in our current mainstream culture, Anima possession can affect women as well, as neither parts of one's psychology has a gender.

@mr_engineer Almost 100% right. ^

The only thing I disagree with is the need to repress our secondary energy.

Our goal is to drop our repressions and realize our wholeness by not holding too tightly to identities associated with Masculine or Feminine.

But otherwise, this is right on the money.

[Gesundheit2]

38 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The only thing I disagree with is the need to repress our secondary energy.

Our goal is to drop our repressions and realize our wholeness by not holding too tightly to identities associated with Masculine or Feminine.

Repression is not always bad. Sometimes it is good. For example, repressing your children's sexual imagination in order to prevent them from getting attracted to each other is good.

Similarly, men need to repress their emotional side in order to be ruthless in making the right decisions. And women need to repress their intellectual side in order to be fully-attuned to their environment and what their families need.

Integrating both sides is a rare feat that is unlikely to happen unless you're old enough and have burned through your primary expression.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[CARDOZZO]

@Emerald This meditation seems interesting  

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, CARDOZZO said:

@Emerald This meditation seems interesting  

Thanks for the video recommendation. I’ll keep it in mind in case any of my coaching clients want to try it for Anima integration.