Liberalism VS. Conservatism

[Devin]

11 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin

   Helpful to think of the left, middle, and right, as a gigantic Ferris wheel, the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. What's then left, becomes the middle, and finally, becomes the right.

         Yeah if you want to slander the left and prop up the right, conflating is very useful for that I agree. 

"To be fair, even though I agree here, I think it's specifically the extreme left that starts it, and then the alt right of  that era maintains  and finishes it."

Who finished WWII, the left or right "of that era"?

[Someone here]

@Emerald For anybody whose once normal everyday life was suddenly shattered by an act of sexual violence... the trauma, the terror, can shatter you long after one horrible attack. It lingers. You don’t know where to go or who to turn to…and people are more suspicious of what you were wearing or what you were drinking, as if it’s your fault, not the fault of the person who assaulted you…We still don’t condemn sexual assault as loudly as we should. Guess why? Because western society is getting more and more and more liberal.we make excuses, we look the other way…[Laws] won’t be enough unless we change the culture that allows assault to happen in the first place.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald For anybody whose once normal everyday life was suddenly shattered by an act of sexual violence... the trauma, the terror, can shatter you long after one horrible attack. It lingers. You don’t know where to go or who to turn to…and people are more suspicious of what you were wearing or what you were drinking, as if it’s your fault, not the fault of the person who assaulted you…We still don’t condemn sexual assault as loudly as we should. Guess why? Because western society is getting more and more and more liberal.we make excuses, we look the other way…[Laws] won’t be enough unless we change the culture that allows assault to happen in the first place.

What are you talking about? We condemn sexual assault way more than we used to and it's way more acceptable to talk about these things in public than it used to.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Carl-Richard
insensitive comment

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald For anybody whose once normal everyday life was suddenly shattered by an act of sexual violence... the trauma, the terror, can shatter you long after one horrible attack. It lingers. You don’t know where to go or who to turn to…and people are more suspicious of what you were wearing or what you were drinking, as if it’s your fault, not the fault of the person who assaulted you…We still don’t condemn sexual assault as loudly as we should. Guess why? Because western society is getting more and more and more liberal.we make excuses, we look the other way…[Laws] won’t be enough unless we change the culture that allows assault to happen in the first place.

Victim blaming only encourages a culture where rape goes unreported and unaddressed.

This enables rapists to rape more because rape victims seal their lips about it to avoid being victim-blamed, shamed, and accused of false accusations.

No one who’s just been raped wants a half of society to then blame them for that rape.

So, they choose to keep it to themselves and suffer in silence to avoid accusations and the scorn of victim blamers.

And the rapists remain at large.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Depends on your definition of "the left," but I certainly associate much of the Western/European arrogance and superiority complex with leftist socialist ideology. 

I know this isn't that relevant from a global perspective, but there is this small but prominent political party in Norway called Rødt ("Red") who have been strongly anti-NATO since their conception, and their bigger brother Sosialistisk Venstre ("Socialist Left") have been back and forth on the issue for half a century and is now reconsidering their pro-NATO stance since the Ukraine war.

EDIT: Oops, they're in fact anti-NATO today. They were reconsidering whether Ukraine should be given NATO membership or not (they used to be against it).

Edited March 2, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

29 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I know this isn't that relevant from a global perspective, but there is this small but prominent political party in Norway called Rødt ("Red") who have been strongly anti-NATO since their conception, and their bigger brother Sosialistisk Venstre ("Socialist Left") have been back and forth on the issue for half a century and is now reconsidering their pro-NATO stance since the Ukraine war.

Same here in Germany. Die Linke ("leftist party") has always been against NATO. Those are quite old-school and populist politics though and very disconnected from any political realities. 

To me this is already far left politics and it shows in their vote count (usually <5% - so rather fringe). When I talk about "the left," I basically mean the status quo in Europe (which is overwhelmingly progressive-rationalist). 

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald For anybody whose once normal everyday life was suddenly shattered by an act of sexual violence... the trauma, the terror, can shatter you long after one horrible attack. It lingers. You don’t know where to go or who to turn to…and people are more suspicious of what you were wearing or what you were drinking, as if it’s your fault, not the fault of the person who assaulted you…We still don’t condemn sexual assault as loudly as we should. Guess why? Because western society is getting more and more and more liberal.we make excuses, we look the other way…[Laws] won’t be enough unless we change the culture that allows assault to happen in the first place.

BBC

www.bbc.com

Hathras case: Dalit women are among the most oppressed in the world

Oct 6, 2020 — Ten Dalit women were raped every day in India last year, according to official figures. The northern state of Uttar Pradesh has the highest .

 

Do you know this is almost non existent in the west? It appears common in the east.

 

Al Jazeera

www.aljazeera.com

Outrage as woman allegedly gang-raped, paraded in India's capital

Feb 1, 2022 — Police in India have arrested 12 people, including eight women and three minor boys, over alleged sexual assault and parading of a young ..

 

 

Don't let the virtue signalling of conservatives fool you.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

What are you talking about? We condemn sexual assault way more than we used to and it's way more acceptable to talk about these things in public than it used to.

What about the rest of this post was "insensitive?"

This was an important point: take care of your own shit before you criticize and gossip about a society you know nothing about and have no stakes in. This is like a blind man talking about color.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Emerald

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

“It's simpler than that. Let's go by my example of rape, the conservative approach.  Liberalism blames the "aggressor" while conservatism blames the "victim". Conservatism is anti-victim mentality. Liberalism is pro-victim mentality.”

So, would you recommend that we not prosecute rapes anymore?

Or would you perhaps prosecute the rape victim for their own rape?

How would you feel if you were a rape victim? Would you blame yourself and bite your tongue about it to avoid admitting that you’ve been victimized?

Would you hold your tongue and allow yourself to be continually raped in order to avoid admitting your victimization so as not to fall prey to victim’s mentality?

What about theft?

If someone steals something from you, are you going to let the thief off the hook because it was your fault that you didn’t protect yourself from being stolen from?

   The bolded parts are an assumption based on what OP has written here, and nowhere else in his past posts, which means you have to acknowledge that, if you're entire post from that point was all about the bolded statement, and it's proven to be false, then you are operating on faulty assumptions.

   Now, I'll assume OP'S point of view and engage with each of those questions directly as if I'm OP, which yes I'm assuming a lot on my part in answering these questions in good faith. Also to readers, disclaimer: we'll be talking about rape.

1. Big assumption and binary. Of course we should prosecute cases of rape when it's reported to the authorities. However, I don't see how this question relates to understanding the conservative mind vs the liberal mind, not political views, the NATURE OF THE MIND. Instead, I'd recommend you tie in this rape question with OP's main idea being discussed, the nature of the conservative and liberal mind, for example when a rape happens, the conservative mind closes down and becomes defensive and guarded against, from the rape experience, to a rape story, because the subject matter is dark.

2. Problematic question, as the built in assumption is there's a false reporting of rape potentially speaking. Here, I'd also agree, and reserve the right, in the legal system, for the authorities to also verify claims of rape. I am not in opposition for or against the charging of the rapist, or the rape victim, I am more in favor for a fairer and more careful investigation, for both sides involved, which is why the American legal system allows, with justification, counter suing and other lawsuits.

3. This question is also problematic, because to imagine yourself getting raped can be triggering and too dark for the reader. There's a lot of factors involved here that also determines to what degree the reader is going to imagine into the scenario, from the stage of development, to cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, ego development, life/lived experiences and other lines of development in various areas of life.

4. This is a follow up question from 3, which is even more problematic because, again, this assumes the reader is willing to imagine this dark scenario inside their minds, and go deeper into the rape visualization. Also, for specific factors, sometimes 'holding your tongue' is part of SURVIVAL, as some places in different parts of the world would silence such reporting, and some people with different psychological development won't act as the average would act in these specific cases.

5. Well, what about theft? while this has little to do with the rape questions you're asking, this breaks away to a different context now, with is fine and I accept the change of context, at least theft is lesser dark than rape. Now I can imagine a situation that deals with theft.

6. This depends on the context. If I was a single father in a line to buy some McDonalds, and my wife is playing with my children,  and my wife saw a homeless looking man steal a wallet from some other woman's purse, that woman is distracted, a table behind her children, should she call out the theft? If she does, then it puts more risk on her, and our children, a table away from the thief, and calling this out when she and our children are too close to them, puts more stress onto the thief who might get more aggressive to them. The question then becomes this: Can you admit and acknowledge the possibility of silence and compliance, as a form of self defense, and that sometimes it's the BEST FORM OF DEFENSE? Also, in some places on earth, if you publicly call out a theft, a group can gather and chase down the offender, and beat them up, or chop their hand off.

   Look, I have stated this before, but again I can't help but feel that you're original post is addressing me more than OP. Yes, OP may have introduced a rape scenario in his original post, or not I don't know, but I've replied to him, and attempted to steer this entire thread into a more specific context, a sexual context, where OP and some can see the differences in a conservative mind dealing with a liberal mind attempting to introduce them to some kink or sexual roleplay, in a DnD setting. That's my post that's trying to give a more specific case of showing how a conservative religious minded person has dealt with what he perceived as a betrayal of trust and perversion, especially when in context he describes that he's a recovering pyrography addict, a Christian, and the person in question who betrays him, is his Fiancée, and he warned the DM, PC and his Fiancée that he felt uncomfortable and wishes to roleplay without the sexual themes, to which, their liberal minds do not acknowledge and respect his wish. To me it's too coincidental that it happens to be my post you are indirectly referring to more than the OP's.  

[Carl-Richard]

44 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

What about the rest of this post was "insensitive?"

This was an important point: take care of your own shit before you criticize and gossip about a society you know nothing about and have no stakes in. This is like a blind man talking about color.

I'm a Norwegian talking about US politics and nobody is harassing me about it.

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

2 hours ago, Devin said:

         Yeah if you want to slander the left and prop up the right, conflating is very useful for that I agree. 

"To be fair, even though I agree here, I think it's specifically the extreme left that starts it, and then the alt right of  that era maintains  and finishes it."

Who finished WWII, the left or right "of that era"?

   To change context a bit, look at the anti culture movement in the Nixon era, what happened? with age and time, those hippies ended up being in the left leaning universities, some as professors now, now a part of an establishment. Notice how, 30+ years ago they were more hippie and new agey in their thinking and movement, but now they mellowed out a bit and, became a bit more conservative and moderate. Again, it's the wheel of time.

   I don't mean to conflate the left, middle and right, but again, to me, it's a wheel. What can I saw? Age changes people man!

[Danioover9000]

@Someone here

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald For anybody whose once normal everyday life was suddenly shattered by an act of sexual violence... the trauma, the terror, can shatter you long after one horrible attack. It lingers. You don’t know where to go or who to turn to…and people are more suspicious of what you were wearing or what you were drinking, as if it’s your fault, not the fault of the person who assaulted you…We still don’t condemn sexual assault as loudly as we should. Guess why? Because western society is getting more and more and more liberal.we make excuses, we look the other way…[Laws] won’t be enough unless we change the culture that allows assault to happen in the first place.

   Actually, it's a bit the other way around. At least in democratic first world countries there's far more outrage and outcry of these sexual assaults. In other parts of the world, there's still deep stigmas of dealing with those situations, and worse, reporting a case like that is discouraged, and can sometimes result in ostracization, sometimes even death. At least in the USA and in the Sweden governments, they enforce way more justice than other parts of the world. 

[Danioover9000]

   This is a really good video, I wish this is the level of discourse here in the thread:

 

[Nilsi]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm a Norwegian talking about US politics and nobody is harassing me about it.

You're a westerner talking about western society.

It would be inappropriate for us to discuss Indian or Chinese or Russian politics, given the stark cultural differences and our lack of historic context and lived experience - don't you think?

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

You're a westerner talking about western society.

It would be inappropriate for us to discuss Indian or Chinese or Russian politics, given the stark cultural differences and our lack of historic context and lived experience - don't you think?

Nah. I didn't live 10 000 years ago, but I sometimes like to discuss how life was like back then. Nobody is gate-keeping me about that.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Nah. I didn't live 10 000 years ago, but I sometimes like to discuss how life was like back then. Nobody is gate-keeping me about that.

Don't be so difficult.

If I'm a psychologist and exclusively concern myself with physics, because my roommates are physicists, I'm clearly lost and need someone to point me to what's actually relevant.

That's like the old story of the fox trying to be like the lion.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Nilsi

[How to be wise]

These people are wise?! Come on man.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by How to be wise

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

Don't be so difficult.

If I'm a psychologist and exclusively concern myself with physics, because my roommates are physicists, I'm clearly lost and need someone to point me to what's actually relevant.

That's like the old story of the fox trying to be like the lion.

This forum is practically Western. If you're on here, you're immersed in Western thinking. Also, because we're a Western forum, we don't exclude people from discussions based on their background

[How to be wise]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

because we're a Western forum, 

This isn’t a western forum. I don’t know how you got that idea. This is a global forum.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This forum is practically Western. If you're on here, you're immersed in Western thinking. Also, because we're a Western forum, we don't exclude people from discussions based on their background

I'm far more interested in having him study his own tradition and culture and tell us about it, instead of trying to be something he will never be - a Westerner.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Nilsi