Liberalism VS. Conservatism

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

They arguably did create the Ukraine War lol.

Intelligent conservatives actually respect a nation like Russia for it's tradition and uniqueness, while virtually all liberals want to flush all that down the toilet and westernize every last spec of dust on this planet. 

The logical extension of your argument is that the west has to "respect" all of Russia's requirement(s) all the time and that there is no limits to what requirement(s) Russia can have and they can always give and create more and more requirements without any limits. The interesting part of the conversation shouldn't be this black and white (you either have to respect everything or nothing) but should be more about where would you draw the line, when certain requirement(s) become too hostile or too demanding or too much to handle.

This is similar to saying when two person has problems negotiating their boundaries and one of the person has hostile/limiting boundaries (for instance, telling your friend, that he has to spend 4 hours playing games with you every weekend ,because if he won't, then you won't be his friend anymore). Is that really a boundary that has to be respected or more like an agressive limiting factor placed on your friend and by doing all that, you are limiting his boundary.

The other implication of your argument is that Russia would have not attacked Ukraine, if the west would have fulfilled all the russian requirements. What is your argument that would support that and do you have a point in your mind,  where you would say that certain "requirements" are too much to handle and you don't have to respect them anymore?

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by zurew

[Nilsi]

39 minutes ago, zurew said:

The logical extension of your argument is that the west has to "respect" all of Russia's requirement(s) all the time and that there is no limits to what requirement(s) Russia can have and they can always give and create more and more requirements without any limits. The interesting part of the conversation shouldn't be this black and white (you either have to respect everything or nothing) but should be more about where would you draw the line, when certain requirement(s) become too hostile or too demanding or too much to handle.

This is similar to saying when two person has problems negotiating their boundaries and one of the person has hostile/limiting boundaries (for instance, telling your friend, that he has to spend 4 hours playing games with you every weekend ,because if he won't, then you won't be his friend anymore). Is that really a boundary that has to be respected or more like an agressive limiting factor placed on your friend and by doing all that, you are limiting his boundary.

The other implication of your argument is that Russia would have not attacked Ukraine, if the west would have fulfilled all the russian requirements. What is your argument that would support that and do you have a point in your mind,  where you would say that certain "requirements" are too much to handle and you don't have to respect them anymore?

 

Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying the west is marginalizing Russia. I'm not saying we should support kleptocracy, genocide and homophobia. You are the one who's making it black & white.

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

9 hours ago, Tanz said:

The left creates the war; the right fights them.  

 

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

They arguably did create the Ukraine War lol.

@Tanz

   SO TRUE! But actually, those aren't considered the left, but Totalitarian/authoritarian structured governments. Maybe you two meant that extreme left?

   Or, the freedom fighters that are Communistic and Marxist? Historically Mau was inspired by Communism, although China and Russia then were more antagonistic to each other than the current relationship between the two.

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

2 hours ago, Devin said:

           What did they do to Russia so far though, to cause this? Provoke, yes, not create, they provoked by supporting democracy and shunning oppression, like scaring a bully by being nice and liked by others.

   Technically, Communism came from Russia, which inspired Mau to lead a revolution in China, so they're the problem then. If they never heard of Communism, the revolution would've happened much later.

[Danioover9000]

@Emerald

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

I didn’t even argue with him in my post. So, I don’t even know what the reaction would be.

I am just asking questions. He can choose to answer them if he wants to or not.

   Well, then it maybe is a syntax and semantics issue, because when I was reading your post and questions, it was worded combatively. compared to my posts here, I wasn't as aggressive in my wording. Also, because of what I've been posting in page 1. I felt this was aimed more at me, not the OP, as I was making the comparison using the DnD example here:

 

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Depends on your definition of "the left," but I certainly associate much of the Western/European arrogance and superiority complex with leftist socialist ideology. 

Intelligent conservatives actually respect a nation like Russia for it's tradition and uniqueness, while virtually all liberals want to flush all that down the toilet and westernize every last spec of dust on this planet. 

That disconnectedness is what got us here, if you ask me.

   To be fair, even though I agree here, I think it's specifically the extreme left that starts it, and then the alt right of  that era maintains  and finishes it.

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   To be fair, even though I agree here, I think it's specifically the extreme left that starts it, and then the alt right of  that era maintains  and finishes it.

Wouldn't the alt right have been the nazis? WWII.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Devin

[Danioover9000]

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

So you want to tell me that the educated western liberal Brahmin caste are basically slaves? - the propaganda machine sure did it's job on you.

 

 

2 hours ago, Devin said:

        No, I mean your claim is effectively the west is espousing democracy therefore Russia must suppress with violence.

        I think the difference from our perspectives is from how the west has used military in the past, I don't group everything the west does as 'left', iraq, vietnam, ..... those were rightwing reasons even though done in the name of democracy they were actually for resources.

@Nilsi @Devin

   Both a difference in the government structures between the two countries, I think what's making this complicated is the historical conflict between the two. It may not even matter who started it, what's more important is, how do we negotiate in such a way that the two stop fighting each other?

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

4 minutes ago, Devin said:

Wouldn't the alt right have been the nazis? WWII. Napoleon?

   They originally started as extremely left, and overtime swung to the right over time. Yes, because there was an already established power there, a more traditionalist right governance, and this little ideologies like Mau's revolution and Nazism, started extremely left, until they rapidly took power, became the new status quo, making them become the extreme right immediately after employing their authoritarian policies.

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin

   They originally started as extremely left, and overtime swung to the right over time. Yes, because there was an already established power there, a more traditionalist right governance, and this little ideologies like Mau's revolution and Nazism, started extremely left, until they rapidly took power, became the new status quo, making them become the extreme right immediately after employing their authoritarian policies.

My emphasis is on how you said the alt right finishes it. Obviously people could argue forever as to who started it.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Devin

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

Just now, Devin said:

My emphasis is on how you said the alt right end it. But still the nazi germany that started the war was also not leftists.

   That's true, because when they took over Germany and established themselves, they no longer were extreme left like the terrorists or freedom fighters, so they became a Totalitarian/authoritarian government. Many decades before though, they were just a small party, not even, and had a vision, a Utopia, of what Germany could become. That, having a utopia vision, with a very small group, makes them extreme left.

[Devin]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin

   That's true, because when they took over Germany and established themselves, they no longer were extreme left like the terrorists or freedom fighters, so they became a Totalitarian/authoritarian government. Many decades before though, they were just a small party, not even, and had a vision, a Utopia, of what Germany could become. That, having a utopia vision, with a very small group, makes them extreme left.

But who finished the war, left or right? Obviously people could argue forever as to who started it.

[Danioover9000]

@Devin  Tangent aside, let's come back to the main point of this thread, the differences between the conservative mind vs liberal mind. The video below illuminates the understanding you need to know both, in a DnD setting:

   Despite the thumbnail, please watch it. It's there when you're looking for it.

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin  Tangent aside, let's come back to the main point of this thread, the differences between the conservative mind vs liberal mind. The video below illuminates the understanding you need to know both, in a DnD setting:

   Despite the thumbnail, please watch it. It's there when you're looking for it.

          You can't reinforce an inflammatory statement like the left creates the wars and the right finishes them and then just walk away.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Devin

[Nilsi]

18 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   To be fair, even though I agree here, I think it's specifically the extreme left that starts it, and then the alt right of  that era maintains  and finishes it.

What? The "extreme" left are a bunch of sweaty androgynous teenagers that hang out on Twitter all day - hardly the kind of demographic starting wars.

It's precisely the "moderate" left that has the power to control the narrative and go on political crusades.

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

What? The "extreme" left are a bunch of sweaty androgynous teenagers that hang out on Twitter all day - hardly the kind of demographic starting wars.

It's precisely the "moderate" left that has the power to control the narrative and go on political crusades.

   When I said the extreme left, I don't mean current online progressives, I mean the terrorists and freedom fighters and rebels, the chaotic groups that are willing to overthrow an establishment violently. Not keyboard warriors.

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   When I said the extreme left, I don't mean current online progressives, I mean the terrorists and freedom fighters and rebels, the chaotic groups that are willing to overthrow an establishment violently. Not keyboard warriors.

Same ideology - probably just the difference between introverts and extroverts.

Those people hold virtually 0 political power.

This is all about power. 

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Emerald

   Well, then it maybe is a syntax and semantics issue, because when I was reading your post and questions, it was worded combatively. compared to my posts here, I wasn't as aggressive in my wording. Also, because of what I've been posting in page 1. I felt this was aimed more at me, not the OP, as I was making the comparison using the DnD example here:

 

I hadn’t even read your posts on here when I wrote the questions.

And I was just asking really direct questions because the OP was being very direct (and even insulting) about his views.

And he was essentially saying that conservatives are better because they’re victim blamers, which is a wild take. And that would lead to so much mayhem in society if legislatively implemented or accepted as the default response to rape.

And there’s just no need to pussy foot around people and their views. I’m not afraid of offending anyone. And I don’t agree with handling people with kid gloves.

Everyone should be able to handle a direct challenge to their views… especially if they engage in straw manning and insults to get their point across.

Poke the bear and the bear pokes backs. That’s the nature of things. 

Also, I really want to know the OPs answers to them and how he would try to square those circles. 

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

47 minutes ago, Devin said:

          You can't reinforce an inflammatory statement like the left creates the wars and the right finishes them and then just walk away.

   Helpful to think of the left, middle, and right, as a gigantic Ferris wheel, the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. What's then left, becomes the middle, and finally, becomes the right.

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

33 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Same ideology - probably just the difference between introverts and extroverts.

Those people hold virtually 0 political power.

This is all about power. 

   Sure, although it's still subject to time and relativity.