Did Leo change his perspective on this? Still confused

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Right and wrong is also an assumption.

Don't you get it? This shit is infinite. That's the game.

No..this is Godels Incompleteness Theorem.  Meaning you cannot grasp the infinite.   You must become it.  

[Arthogaan]

5 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

It is also an assumption to think that you can separate reality from assumptions, or that you can have a reality without assumptions. It's just naive.

But a newborn child, with no reference points, no memory, he would perceive just some weird dance of colours. The thing he would experience is more close to being alone with no conception of others, rather than the whole story about humans having their own perspective and thoughts.

[Breakingthewall]

@Gesundheit2 it's something quite simple. if by meditating, or doing psychedelics, or self inquiry as inligthened, you break the apparent limitation that shapes you as gesundeith, you will become infinite. this is a brutal experience, something quite violent at first. well, if this happens, you will realize that you are absolute. nothing can be outside of you, infinite in short. if this happens several times, you will realize that you, gesundheit, really are that. It's not that you become a god by taking a drug, it's that you are right now but it doesn't seem like it, and you never will exit of your direct experience. Your direct experience is the reality. apparently you're a guy surrounded by other guys. fake. you are the infinite creating a performance, and there is nothing else. if you want you can go deep into this now to infinity. then, you realize that the bottomless well that you are is everything. whatever appears in the performance is just imagination.

What I was saying before, when you told me that so irritating that I'm not awake and I responded with double irritation, is that everything you're imagining is somehow real. that is to say, right now I am all there is, but in another now you are all there is, since my direct experience is beeing me, and then it is being you, and thus every proton in the cosmos, but that does not take away a truth: at this exact moment, I am the existence, there is nothing outside of me. absolute loneliness. And always its going to be like that, because the others are a fiction, they are you, and when you are going to be they, you are going to be you like always, totally alone. Horrible? Nah, you are absolute freedom, perfection. There is no problem with your loneliness. But as a human could seems very hard to accept.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Gesundheit2]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

No..this is Godels Incompleteness Theorem.  Meaning you cannot grasp the infinite.   You must become it.  

A theorem is a general proposition not self-evident by itself, but proved by a chain of reasoning; a truth established by means of accepted truths.

It's not an absolute truth, rather just relative to assumptions.

8 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

But a newborn child, with no reference points, no memory, he would perceive just some weird dance of colours. The thing he would experience is more close to being alone with no conception of others, rather than the whole story about humans having their own perspective and thoughts.

I don't know how a newborn would perceive the world. I certainly don't remember how I did.

But in any case, it would still be a story that others don't exist. It's basically the same sneaky argument you've made earlier, but based on a different reason. But notice, in all cases, you are not escaping the mind or its storytelling ability. The only difference between solipsism and multiplicity is that solipsists gloss over that fact in favor of solipsism while multiplicisits (lol) do the same in favor of multiplicity, for whatever reason.

[Gesundheit2]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Gesundheit2 it's something quite simple. if by meditating, or doing psychedelics, or self inquiry as inligthened, you break the apparent limitation that shapes you as gesundeith, you will become infinite. this is a brutal experience, something quite violent at first. well, if this happens, you will realize that you are absolute. nothing can be outside of you, infinite in short. if this happens several times, you will realize that you, gesundheit, really are that. It's not that you become a god by taking a drug, it's that you are right now but it doesn't seem like it, and you never will exit of your direct experience. Your direct experience ir the reality. apparently you're a guy surrounded by other guys. fake. you are the infinite creating a performance, and there is nothing else. if you want you can go deep into this now to infinity. then, you realize that the bottomless well that you are is everything. whatever appears in the performance is just imagination.

What I was saying before, when you told me that so irritating that I'm not awake and I responded with double irritation, is that everything you're imagining is somehow real. that is to say, right now I am all there is, but in another now you are all there is, since my direct experience is beeing me, and then it is being you, and thus every proton in the cosmos, but that does not take away a truth: at this exact moment, I am the existence, there is nothing outside of me. absolute loneliness

I wish you the cure of loneliness, my friend.

Again, it's not hard at all to understand what you're saying. It's just hard to relate to it, because it's irrelevant. I like the game, and I know you like it too, so don't be shy, and come and join me. We're waiting for you.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

A theorem is a general proposition not self-evident by itself, but proved by a chain of reasoning; a truth established by means of accepted truths.

It's not an absolute truth, rather just relative to assumptions.

I don't know how a newborn would perceive the world. I certainly don't remember how I did.

But in any case, it would still be a story that others don't exist. It's basically the same sneaky argument you've made earlier, but based on a different reason. But notice, in all cases, you are not escaping the mind or its storytelling ability. The only difference between solipsism and multiplicity is that solipsists gloss over that fact in favor of solipsism while multiplicisits (lol) do the same in favor of multiplicity, for whatever reason.

You mean idealists right?  Because in truth, if you've realized idealism then solipsism is the case by default.  So let me ask you - what paradigm do you currently subscribe to?  I really want to know...because I think that deep down you still feel there is an objective reality.  And we'll, quite frankly- you should- until realized otherwise.   Your intuition is what drives you.  It will be what drives you to Ultimate Truth, just as it will drive you to survive.  

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I wish you the cure of loneliness, my friend.

Again, it's not hard at all to understand what you're saying. It's just hard to relate to it, because it's irrelevant. I like the game, and I know you like it too, so don't be shy, and come and join me. We're waiting for you.

Hahah ok, i wish you do well in the game, because you are me, and when my direct experience is to be gesundheit I don't want to get bored

[Gesundheit2]

@Inliytened1 My "paradigm" is that living life does not require figuring it out intellectually, nor that that's possible in the first place.

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Gesundheit2 said:

@Inliytened1 My "paradigm" is that living life does not require figuring it out intellectually, nor that that's possible in the first place.

You're dodging the question.  

[Gesundheit2]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You're dodging the question.  

How?

You asked me about the paradigm I subscribe to currently. And I answered with my most sincere and accurate understanding of what that might be.

If you want me to choose between materialism and idealism, then you're limiting my options, cuz I don't view life in this binary, black vs. white kind of way. I think there's truth in every paradigm, but also falsehood. So I have made my own mix, and I'm listening to it, and it rocks! 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit2 said:

How?

You asked me about the paradigm I subscribe to currently. And I answered with my most sincere and accurate understanding of what that might be.

If you want me to choose between materialism and idealism, then you're limiting my options, cuz I don't view life in this binary, black vs. white kind of way. I think there's truth in every paradigm, but also falsehood. So I have made my own mix, and I'm listening to it, and it rocks! 

Well, that's good then. Keep options open.  

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall

At the best case scenario.. Solipsism is undebunkable. There are no arguments against it. That doesn't mean it's true.

You gotta get over this thing man, you genuinely seem obsessed to the point of danger.

Either accept that it's real and you can't change it, or decide that it's not and don't worry about it. Being in the middle of the road is the least safe you can be.

Don't rush into conclusions such as "there is only me and others aren't real" because you know it's bullshit. And I know that you know that it's bullshit. Because who are you talking with If there is only you? 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

@Breakingthewall

At the best case scenario.. Solipsism is undebunkable. There are no arguments against it. That doesn't mean it's true.

You gotta get over this thing man, you genuinely seem obsessed to the point of danger.

Either accept that it's real and you can't change it, or decide that it's not and don't worry about it. Being in the middle of the road is the least safe you can be.

Don't rush into conclusions such as "there is only me and others aren't real" because you know it's bullshit. And I know that you know that it's bullshit. Because who are you talking with If there is only you? 

You are conflating the relative with the Absolute.   You can still engage in reality if you are lucid in a dream.  It's actually more pleasurable.  In the end, when you realize it's a dream you are liberated.  The only thing that's scary is the letting go of the dream- because we have become so attached. 

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

You are conflating the relative with the Absolute

Seriously though, Where do you find "relative" and "absolute"? Did you capture them in a jar or something? 

I don't just use my mind. I use my senses also. Solipsism does not make a whim of a sense. This whole conversation is absurd and hilarious. We need to get off our damn computer when we mentally masturbate over "others aren't real bugaboo" and socialize with real people. 

I'm done here. 

@Gesundheit2 what's your IQ? 

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Seriously though, Where do you find "relative" and "absolute"? M

@Gesundheit2 what's your IQ? 

It's simply a way to compare what is actual and what is illusion.  The Absolute is what is, and the relative is a game we play.  What's beautiful about this is that you can lose yourself in the game.  This doesn't mean you cannot remember it's a game - but it also doesn't mean you can't forget its a game.  And when you forget, it becomes reality.  

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's simply a way to compare what is actual and what is illusion.  The Absolute is what is, and the relative is a game we play.  What's beautiful about this is that you can lose yourself in the game.  This doesn't mean you cannot remember it's a game - but it also doesn't mean you can't forget its a game.  And when you forget, it becomes reality.  

No. That's also part of Leo's misinformation. These metaphors that life is like a dream or like a video game are inaccurate and not true. Life is more real than real. Let's see your philosophy holding water when your survival is threatened seirously. If I point a gun into your head.. Why would you be afraid? It's a freaking game after all! 

[Gesundheit2]

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit2 what's your IQ? 

I don't remember the exact number, but it was slightly above average.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No. That's also part of Leo's misinformation. These metaphors that life is like a dream or like a video game are inaccurate and not true. Life is more real than real. Let's see your philosophy holding water when your survival is threatened seirously. If I point a gun into your head.. Why would you be afraid? It's a freaking game after all! 

There is no misinformation on this forum.   If you wanna be brainwashed - there are other places to go.  Here- we tell it llke it is - and we also tell you to think for yourself.   And that is what you are doing- and I respect that.   Now on the topic of fear - you have to remember that God attaches itself it to a finite form and when it does it is absolutely total.  That is why it must include fear.  Fear will protect one from losing its form - and the reason it took a specific form was to be that form.  So it will do whatever it takes to preserve that form.  It is only by stepping outside such form that it is realized that it was always an illusion. 

[Someone here]

@Gesundheit2 you have some serious talent in playing with concepts in a elegant way that Makes your "opponents" want to pull their hair out. 

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There is no misinformation on this forum.   If you wanna be brainwashed - there are other places to go.  Here- we tell it llke it is - and we also tell you to think for yourself.   And that is what you are doing- and I respect that.   Now on the topic of fear - you have to remember that God attaches itself it to a finite form and when it does it is absolutely total.  That is why it must include fear.  Fear will protect one from losing its form - and the reason it took a specific form was to be that form.  So it will do whatever it takes to preserve that form.  It is only by stepping outside such form that it is realized that it was always an illusion. 

That's backwards. You start as a form. Are you aware of a primordial formless state before you took this human Suit? For me personally, I can't remember. All Im aware of is the finite formed world.