Frank Yang on TOE with Curt Jaimungal Interview

[Asayake]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Do you think the same might apply to your view of Vipassana or Buddhism? If you can’t go into cessation practically on command, you’re behind even some of the Western experts who are probably still missing 80%+ of Buddhism.
 

It seems like you have less experience in Buddhism than many in that system, and those operating within that framework have far less experience with psychedelics. 
 

To me, it’s seeming like the bias is going both ways. 

I think you raise a valid point. It made me think of the other day when Leo said that people who dedicate their life to chess are idiots. How would you know if you didn't dedicate your life to chess yourself?

You don't know what chess is if you don't dedicate yourself to it fully, is what it looks like from my point of view. So how could you know that people who dedicate their lives to X are misled if you haven't done the same yourself? You don't really know what they're doing. Of course Leo is biased towards psychedelics because he pursued them more than most so he also knows more than most what is possible going down that path. But the same is true for other paths as well. Other teachers seem as convinced as Leo that their paths are superior because it worked well for them.

It seems to me like it's highly individual. It seems impossible to describe what needs to be done without saying something that is self biased and dogmatic, doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. You don't have to become brainwashed just because you do Vipassana, Also psychedelics could just as well be deceptive and clever just like Vipassana. There's a reason people end up deluded on both sides of the coin.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Asayake

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

Vipassana is nothing more than using your body feelings as an object of meditation.  Shinzen Young’s Unified Mindfulness system is based on Vipassana, with all the cultural trappings and beliefs removed.   It is a pure practice.  

https://unifiedmindfulness.com/
 

I think the point Leo is trying to make is to be careful not to turn any practice into dogma or ideology. 
 

Even Luke Skywalker had to learn that the hard way, lol.

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Asayake said:

I think you raise a valid point. It made me think of the other day when Leo said that people who dedicate their life to chess are idiots. How would you know if you didn't dedicate your life to chess yourself?

You don't know what chess is if you don't dedicate yourself to it fully, is what it looks like from my point of view. So how could you know that people who dedicate their lives to X are misled if you haven't done the same yourself? You don't really know what they're doing. Of course Leo is biased towards psychedelics because he pursued them more than most so he also knows more than most what is possible going down that path. But the same is true for other paths as well. Other teachers seem as convinced as Leo that their paths are superior because it worked well for them.

It seems to me like it's highly individual. It seems impossible to describe what needs to be done without saying something that is self biased and dogmatic, doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. You don't have to become brainwashed just because you do Vipassana, Also psychedelics could just as well be deceptive and clever just like Vipassana. There's a reason people end up deluded on both sides of the coin.

I agree that the best spiritual practices someone should do is going to be quite individualized. No two awakenings are likely to be the same. Awakening is going to be the culmination of a multitude of different factors for each individual. 
 

If we look at Awakening as building a house, Frank Yang will say that saws are useful, but they won’t take you all the way. He’ll say that hammers are the tool of choice. Leo will say that saws are the preferred tool, and that hammers are often more trouble than they are worth. Fuck that. I’m building my house with saws, hammers, and anything else that is useful. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Vipassana is nothing more than using your body feelings as an object of meditation.  Shinzen Young’s Unified Mindfulness system is based on Vipassana, with all the cultural trappings and beliefs removed.   It is a pure practice.  

https://unifiedmindfulness.com/

Hehe....

It's way more than pure practice. It is an entire worldview and not only that, it will actually prevent you from reaching the highest levels of Consciousness.

You will not reach God-Consciousness via any kind of reductive system like Shinzen's. Consciousness is non-reducible. You cannot understand God by breaking your field of experience down into pieces and chunks as Shinzen attempts to do. This is the mistake of materialism all over again in the guise of Buddha's authority.

2 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Do you think the same might apply to your view of Vipassana or Buddhism? If you can’t go into cessation practically on command, you’re behind even some of the Western experts who are probably still missing 80%+ of Buddhism.

It seems like you have less experience in Buddhism than many in that system, and those operating within that framework have far less experience with psychedelics. 

To me, it’s seeming like the bias is going both ways. 

Judge for yourself, but what I'm saying is that cessation has nothing to do with Awakening. Have as many cessations as you want, in the end you will still not understand God.

Cessation != understanding. And nothing beats understanding.

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Leo serious question here because I'm finding this to be more than true. 

I'm stuck between teachers right now and I think I'm at a point where I just want to follow one and go super deep. 

1 you, i find the quality of your teachings incredible and they have opened me up. But I find some things you say and do to be extremely ungrounded and hateful of humanity and it deters me. You also don't believe other beings are sentient which I think is a dangerous assumption. 

2 Ralston. Obviously the most conscious but his way of never stating the point in simple terms sometimes keeps my mind spinning and going in circles. He also does not teach anything on Love and sees it as a mere emotion. Big turnoff for me. 

3 Tantric Teacher. This man is from India and taught me the ropes of Kundalini God Realization Love and Energy. He has an extremely powerful aura but he is not teaching too much around metaphysics. It's more love and good vibes and he is an integrous guy. We do mostly self inquiry, he doesn't support psychedelics. In fact he's kinda like a balance between Ralston and you. 

So yeah. Help me out here if you can. I want to move forward wisely and these teachings and getting too conflicting in certain ways. 

You should not trust any human. Seek the truth independently for yourself. Consider all these humans are just tricksters testing you with traps and games. Your job is to outwit them all, not to subscribe to any one. As soon as you stop thinking independently, you fail.

- - - -

I am working on a course that will once and for all explain how to reach God Consciousness and completely deconstruct Buddhism, Vedanta, nonduality, and absolutely all human spiritual teachings. Until you reach Alien God Consciousness, Insanity, and Infinite Kinds of Love, including Alien Love. And ultimately Omniscience.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You should not trust any human. Seek the truth independently for yourself. Consider all these humans are just tricksters testing you with traps and games. Your job is to outwit them all, not to subscribe to any one. As soon as you stop thinking independently, you fail.

On 27/2/2023 at 21:12, Godishere said:

 

This is the best advice I've ever heard from a teacher.

[ValiantSalvatore]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You will not reach God-Consciousness via any kind of reductive system like Shinzen's. Consciousness is non-reducible. You cannot understand God by breaking your field of experience down into pieces and chunks as Shinzen attempts to do. This is the mistake of materialism all over again in the guise of Buddha's authority.

This view itself does not understand the wholeness of the techniques, there are plenty of inclusion oriented wholeness aspects about various forms, of techniques like expanding into space etc. The divide and conquer method similar to what the Buddah did, is pretty much just the plain basics, the other techniques take a very different approach like the expansion and contraction paradgim, that stems from Rinzai Zen. 

Although when I had a taste of consciouness I had to let go of all techniques. I am just saying here more casually, it's not as reductionistics as some tradtional buddhist monastary. 

Shinzen is also not really a Vipassana teacher, has he includes Rinzai-Zen paradigm from Sasaki Roshi, in terms of mastery, you'd have to check who was the masters master and then verfiy for yourself. I am just using the expansion and contraction paradigm for one year, and it teaches me a lot about fear and the physical identifcation with the body. Divide and conquered works for me more subtley, although the deepst identifactions are physical! Physical body, feelings of death etc. This is what is interesting also under influence of psycdelics, although there is more an intutive flow to it. 

And yes best verify for yourself, although like don't be an a** and reach out to others. 

To clarify this is more generally meant, not directly at Leo Gura. I also don't really think it's possible, you can go to causal and non-dual experiences. God-Realizations etc seems to be entirely different. Still archetypes etc. that you meet on DMT, are the beginning of the casusal stage so... Casual-subtle, this is the only thing I am a bit worried about. Many have done psychdelics before and I miss the cross-reference and cross-paradigmatic intuitions and references.

This is mostly from reading, not from direct experience.

Edited March 1, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

This view itself does not understand the wholeness of the techniques, there are plenty of inclusion oriented wholeness aspects about various forms, of techniques like expanding into space etc. The divide and conquer method similar to what the Buddah did, is pretty much just the plain basics

I'm not just talking about some one divide and conquer technique. The whole Buddhist paradigm is attempting to reduce Consciousness to something like emptiness. It's fundamentally wrong and it does not work for understanding what Consciousness really is. Consciousness is not really emptiness, and you cannot understand what it is by silencing your mind, or any of the techniques Shinzen teaches. None of your Buddhist enlightenments will get you a deep understanding of what Consciousness is and how it works.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Leo Gura

[bazera]

@Leo Gura

Quote

None of your Buddhist enlightenments will get you a deep understanding of what Consciousness is and how it works.

Didn't you start with those kinds of practices yourself? 

Isn't Buddhism a tool, maybe not the ultimate tool, but a tool nonetheless? Which can be used to some degree.

But yea, if we are talking about spending 40 years in meditation and doing nothing else, that's another problem.

 

[Kshantivadin]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness is not really emptiness,

This is only a fragment of the teaching. Any legit master will understand the "natural radiance" of the emptiness - form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Zero is infinity. 

What I think itches you about a lot of these guys is that they are knitting their teachings according to what they think is the most skillful way (upaya - skillful means) to transmit to their students and audience - yet they understand more. It's a heavy burden to just lay out directly all these things we can now talk about over a cup of coffee - remember when you first understood Infinity? It's enough to make a grown man shiver in terror fetal-positioned for days 

Before you disagree, tons of these guys just stopped seeking after understanding Emptiness. It is a legitimate trap in these spiritual systems. 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura

Didn't you start with those kinds of practices yourself? 

Yes.

And it took me a long time to realize how foolish I was for blindly trusting these Buddhists, as if they are some authorities on the subject of Consciousness.

1 minute ago, bazera said:

Isn't Buddhism a tool, maybe not the ultimate tool, but a tool nonetheless? Which can be used to some degree.

Of course.

I am pointing out the traps and limits of the tool.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

This is only a fragment of the teaching. Any legit master will understand the "natural radiance" of the emptiness - form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Zero is infinity. 

Yes, sure, but what I'm saying goes entire orders deeper than that.

People who speak in these platitudes: Form, formlessness, emptiness, etc. It's clear to me they have not truly confronted what Consciousness is.

Quote

What I think itches you about a lot of these guys is that they are knitting their teachings according to what they think is the most skillful way (upaya - skillful means) to transmit to their students and audience - yet they understand more.

No, my problem is that these guys fundamentally do not understand what Consciousness/God is. They understand less than they let on. If they understood more I would be happy with them.

The stuff these teach is anti-understanding. That's what pisses me off about it. They have actually invented a clever system to get people to stop trying to understand Consciousness. It's extremely sneaky. You probably don't even know its happening to you as you learn from these teachers. You just assume they are guiding you towards the highest and that all roads lead to same place.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Kshantivadin]

@Leo Gura What are the most adequate terms? God Love and Infinity? 

"God" is also a platitude word in the West and the word "Love" subject to such crude banalisation. 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

@Leo Gura What are the most adequate terms? God Love and Infinity? 

"God" is also a platitude word in the West and the word "Love" subject to such crude banalisation. 

It goes way deeper than which terms you use.

What I look at is not the terms per se, but one's fundamental grasp of what Consciousness is. Does the person understand how it works, why it exists, what its highest levels are, how the mind constructs reality, etc?

Buddhism and nonduality tends to flatten all this rich terrain down into a 1-D plane. And it is a distinctly human sort of plane.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not just talking about some one divide and conquer technique. The whole Buddhist paradigm is attempting to reduce Consciousness to something like emptiness. It's fundamentally wrong and it does not work for understanding what Consciousness really is.

That is actually interesting, I don't think I noticed that there is a single non-buddhist eastern idea, mixed in it. I do think the merging parts from the experience that you featured, years ago can give deep oneness experiences, although like I often said, you have a very deep understanding in this and it's basically your 9-5 in a sense, so I am often like an employee who has to step on each rung of the ladder provided, and find the nuggets of wisdom on my own. 

When I had the consciouness experience, just the effort of explaining any of it would create corruption, I dunno basking in this what need would I even have to speak? Although it was just a glimpse. 

Emptiness = casual state, so there is no real confusions here, at least for me.

He did mix some stuff of his own in there, yet there barely is anyone who is very serious about it. Expansion into space and self-inquiry by far gave the deepst experience, with psychdelics.

See space definitely moves you into 4D 100%, if you want to train with Shinzens Paradigm, feel, see, rest maybe get's you 4D taste, feel space fully moves you there. For some timelness notion you can reach non-dual states, and explore all stages within Shinzens Paradigm, although from his book (new one) the science of enlightenment, he even had psychdelic experiences (maybe not mentioning because of power and image struggles etc...) with edibles etc. That gave him a taste for what consciouness is.

This is an entirely "new" area maybe people in ancient jungle cities were able to explore deeply what consciouness is with psychdelic tools.

Edited March 1, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Emptiness = casual state, so there is no real confusions here, at least for me.

I'm not really interested in emptiness. Of course it's a facet, but it's so obvious and rudimentary it's uninteresting to me.

I'm more interested in, for example, realizing that your entire life is just a dream within God's Mind. And then understanding what this God's Mind is up to. Have you even considered what the movement of Consciousness is for? Why are you dreaming? Why are you human? For what purpose?

For example, I've become conscious that our entire universe is just a molecule within an alien God-Mind that exists on a higher dimension, which is using all the conscious experience of the universe to fuel it's own intelligence process, in order to understand itself deeper and accessing ever higher categories of metaphysical Love.

No Buddhist has a clue about such things.

What no Buddhist understands is that Consciousness is engaged in a process of ever-deeper self-understanding and Intelligence. The movement of the whole universe is there to raise the universe's intelligence of itself, in order to achieve Omniscience. There are dimensions of Consciousness so advanced and so alien that no human can even begin to imagine it. None of these things are understood by Buddhists or nondualists.

Does your Buddhist understand what alien consciousness is? No! He has no clue. Does your Buddhist understand what Love is? No! Not even a little. At best he has some crap human idea of Love. That's not any kind of proper understanding of what LOVE is metaphysically.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Thought Art

[ValiantSalvatore]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not really interested in emptiness. Of course it's a facet, but it's so obvious and rudimentary it's uninteresting to me.

I'm more interested in, for example, realizing that your entire life is just a dream within God's Mind. And then what this God's Mind is up to.

I can see the point on Psychdelics, clearly it scares the living shit out of me. Like watching a motiviational video about smth. and it starts with: "YOU ARE THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE" and I can see and feel the substrat of that and experience that fully.

For me god and consciouness would be interchangeable, I don't really think I am apt for a philosophical discussion about this, yet if I would describe my experience, we could simply see if they coincide and where there are loopholes etc. I'd say the same, yet sometimes. I don't like the term god, because it evokes a lot of power feelings in me, and for me there is a clear difference in feeling and acting from god, and taking no credit, and beign slightly corrupted in terms of having flaws as any human beign, as well as yes something as mindshattering as realizing the world is maya, would be utterly beautfiul. That is something I yearned for from the get go and why I liked Alan Watts philosophy for example. 

Call it god's mind w/e. I'd always say god-realized mind as I woud be more warry of the power corruption...lol and I had my fair share of this stuff. 

No god-realization though although I understand it a bit better thanks to your videos about it. Mainstream society is just getting used to love, it's pretty much the next stage I feel. 

If I'd speak openly about some sci-fi theories that are ("legit") like the kardehsev scale etc. With just the emotional LL quadrant of intersubjectiveity from groups, with values and language etc. I do think we are moving towards love with all the b.s that is happening. When I contemplate even EU news (on the net), as well as just check my insta. 

Nobody wants pure rationality anymore I am so glad for this consciouness movement etc. It's just expected so to say, even within A.I love and adventure play a larger role at least here. Yet they bait you with holism . Then the real SD wars beginns. 
 

Edited March 1, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

I don't like the term god

That's because you're not yet conscious of what God is.

When you finally start to realize what God is, the only words out of your mouth will be, OH MY GOD.

When you finally realize what God is, you will take a shit in the middle of the carpet in your living room. You won't have time to the bathroom to shit. It will be too astounding for such human concerns.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's because you're not yet conscious of what God is.

When you finally start to realize what God is, the only words out of your mouth will be, OH MY GOD.

That is a different point where I'd agree, I don't think we personally would need to discuss this for beliefs sake  just clarity. 

It is very true, as I am not. No need to fool myself. For me I have some personal baggage positive and negative with the term, so I try to use different pointers, although I could use it maybe a bit more. I do cry at times for not having the connection to it, when my entire beign yearns for it. So I dunno what to really say. 

I did say it when I had the awakening to consciouness experience, I also did ask then the universe, consciouness & god what god is, it felt like it was making a mockery of myself, because of "purity idea" and I was angry with my human self and just accepted it. Still very odd trip. Took me 8h to move there on 1P-LSD or AL-LAD with 2-4h of meditation then letting go of all techniques and hitting the sweat spot. It also just hit me, this is the time now to do it. 

I did also exercise during this time. Deconstructing the physical body still has value imo for trips, yet I am not a deep DMT tripper, so I have no idea here. 

That is interesting, I'd badly want to have sex in a god like state, Wilber already hyped me for this stuff. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura you keep mentioning alien, but what’s the difference between alien and human in absolute truth? How is alien any closer to God than human. Both are forms in relative truth.

[ValiantSalvatore]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

For example, I've become conscious that our entire universe is just a molecule within an alien God-Mind that exists on a higher dimension, which is using all the conscious experience of the universe to fuel it's own intelligence process, in order to understand itself deeper and accessing ever higher categories of metaphysical Love.

No Buddhist has a clue about such things.

What no Buddhist understands is that Consciousness is engaged in a process of ever-deeper self-understanding and Intelligence. The movement of the whole universe is there to raise the universe's intelligence of itself, in order to achieve Omniscience. There are dimensions of Consciousness so advanced and so alien that no human can even begin to imagine it. None of these things are understood by Buddhists or nondualists.

Does your Buddhist understand what alien consciousness is? No! He has no clue. Does your Buddhist understand what Love is? No! Not even a little. At best he has some crap human idea of Love. That's not any kind of proper understanding of what LOVE is metaphysically.

That is interesting, I dunno what to make out of it we are fundamentally doing the same as humans, even if it looks very backwards, this is what many developed humans strive for. Although the insights is very interesting. I've seen different types of explanations, so I am presonally unsure if this is archetypal phenomenon, as barely any "buddhist" would teach it and I only had a tiny experience of it on NN-DMT as it was to intense for me, it legit invited me which was to much and I did not feel like I had enough room to let go and join, and I've seen mostly the DMT stuff about it with similar kinds of reports mostly about energy and matter, not intelligence. Like "jesters" playing with balls of energy to generate matter and energy stuff like this. Also this "alien" type energy, it was like someone legit digitized my brain with a chip of aritfical intelligence stemming from an DMT alien. It was way to intense and I am super-sensetive, I just tried the new inhale technique and whoop. 

Like how entities generate energy and dark matter or some other type of energy and other types of stuff which are 4-5Dish apparently, I am not a physicsist, so I dunno how that dimension works in terms of it's properties for a mechanistic understanding. 

What is the difference of a buddhist loving-kindness methaphysical love experience and metaphysial love? Is it also not a tool & principle that generates the same outcome, even if it is not as effective as MDMA for example as well as even falling in love with a single human, that let's you love all humans more deeply. Even if that is selective. What is metaphysical and what are the qualties of it? Is the question to reductionistic? We'd move into metaphysical love no? And not reduce it to smth. It's more like union and oneness?

Edited March 1, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore