Unable to forgive myself for ignorance.

[Bobby_2021]

I re-watched Leo's  forgiveness video and I could easily forgive others for their ignorance/selfishness.

But I can't get myself to forgive myself for the ignorant ways I have acted in the past and let others around me, down.

Ignorance in not really an option when you have unlimited amount of information a google search away. Or even a simple contemplating for 30 min should have given me the answer.

But I still couldn't get the answer. 

Ignorance should not be an option. 

Thoughts? 

[zurew]

Are you referring to instances, where you knew you could have acted better or are you referring to instances, where during that time you didn't know any better (and reflecting on it with a clear mind right now, makes you think how you could have done things better)?

[Osaid]

Your past self doesn't exist anymore. Literally. You're worrying about ghosts. You are something that is constantly changing and evolving.

The Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples when a man came and spat in his face. He wiped it off, and he asked the man, “What next? What do you want to say next?” The man was a little puzzled because he himself never expected that when you spit on somebody’s face, he will ask, “What next?” He had no such experience in his past. He had insulted people and they had become angry and they had reacted. Or if they were cowards and weaklings, they had smiled, trying to bribe the man. But Buddha was like neither, he was not angry nor in any way offended, nor in any way cowardly. But just matter-of-factly he said, “What next?” There was no reaction on his part.

But Buddha’s disciples became angry, and they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much. We cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it, otherwise everybody will start doing things like this!”

Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger. He must have heard from people something about me, that this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter. And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion. He has spit on his idea of me because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?

“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something. Spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent: in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, “What next?”

The man was even more puzzled! And Buddha said to his disciples, “I am more offended by you because you know me, and you have lived for years with me, and still you react.”

Puzzled, confused, the man returned home. He could not sleep the whole night. When you see a Buddha, it is difficult, impossible to sleep anymore the way you used to sleep before. Again and again he was haunted by the experience. He could not explain it to himself, what had happened. He was trembling all over, sweating and soaking the sheets. He had never come across such a man; the Buddha had shattered his whole mind and his whole pattern, his whole past.

The next morning he went back. He threw himself at Buddha’s feet. Buddha asked him again, “What next? This, too, is a way of saying something that cannot be said in language. When you come and touch my feet, you are saying something that cannot be said ordinarily, for which all words are too narrow; it cannot be contained in them.” Buddha said, “Look, Ananda, this man is again here, he is saying something. This man is a man of deep emotions.”

The man looked at Buddha and said, “Forgive me for what I did yesterday.”

Buddha said, “Forgive? But I am not the same man to whom you did it. The Ganges goes on flowing, it is never the same Ganges again. Every man is a river. The man you spit upon is no longer here. I look just like him, but I am not the same, much has happened in these twenty-four hours! The river has flowed so much. So I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you.

“And you also are new. I can see you are not the same man who came yesterday because that man was angry and he spit, whereas you are bowing at my feet, touching my feet. How can you be the same man? You are not the same man, so let us forget about it. Those two people, the man who spit and the man on whom he spit, both are no more. Come closer. Let us talk of something else.”

[Bobby_2021]

13 hours ago, zurew said:

Are you referring to instances, where you knew you could have acted better or are you referring to instances, where during that time you didn't know any better (and reflecting on it with a clear mind right now, makes you think how you could have done things better)?

Yes. Exactly

 

[Bobby_2021]

7 hours ago, Osaid said:

Your past self doesn't exist anymore. Literally. You're worrying about ghosts. You are something that is constantly changing and evolving.

The Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples when a man came and spat in his face. He wiped it off, and he asked the man, “What next? What do you want to say next?” The man was a little puzzled because he himself never expected that when you spit on somebody’s face, he will ask, “What next?” He had no such experience in his past. He had insulted people and they had become angry and they had reacted. Or if they were cowards and weaklings, they had smiled, trying to bribe the man. But Buddha was like neither, he was not angry nor in any way offended, nor in any way cowardly. But just matter-of-factly he said, “What next?” There was no reaction on his part.

But Buddha’s disciples became angry, and they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much. We cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it, otherwise everybody will start doing things like this!”

Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger. He must have heard from people something about me, that this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter. And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion. He has spit on his idea of me because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?

“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something. Spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent: in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, “What next?”

The man was even more puzzled! And Buddha said to his disciples, “I am more offended by you because you know me, and you have lived for years with me, and still you react.”

Puzzled, confused, the man returned home. He could not sleep the whole night. When you see a Buddha, it is difficult, impossible to sleep anymore the way you used to sleep before. Again and again he was haunted by the experience. He could not explain it to himself, what had happened. He was trembling all over, sweating and soaking the sheets. He had never come across such a man; the Buddha had shattered his whole mind and his whole pattern, his whole past.

The next morning he went back. He threw himself at Buddha’s feet. Buddha asked him again, “What next? This, too, is a way of saying something that cannot be said in language. When you come and touch my feet, you are saying something that cannot be said ordinarily, for which all words are too narrow; it cannot be contained in them.” Buddha said, “Look, Ananda, this man is again here, he is saying something. This man is a man of deep emotions.”

The man looked at Buddha and said, “Forgive me for what I did yesterday.”

Buddha said, “Forgive? But I am not the same man to whom you did it. The Ganges goes on flowing, it is never the same Ganges again. Every man is a river. The man you spit upon is no longer here. I look just like him, but I am not the same, much has happened in these twenty-four hours! The river has flowed so much. So I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you.

“And you also are new. I can see you are not the same man who came yesterday because that man was angry and he spit, whereas you are bowing at my feet, touching my feet. How can you be the same man? You are not the same man, so let us forget about it. Those two people, the man who spit and the man on whom he spit, both are no more. Come closer. Let us talk of something else.”

When thinking about things from an existential point of view, it makes so much sense, so much clarity. I think I should let time heal myself or wait for my development to reach this level. 

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Yes. Exactly

Regarding instances where you were intentionally ignorant: In the middle of a debate/argument its very common to be intentionally ignorant or to defend your side and not really let go of certain claims, because frankly, in those cases, you are probably triggered and emotional (which is totally fine, and all of us sometimes fall into this trap and it is a very human thing to do) I would except no one (because I can't do it myself) to be able to let go of certain beliefs or in the middle of a heated debate.                  

The fact that you are able to self reflect later is a rare and a very valuable thing. 

Regarding intances, where you weren't intentionally ignorant: In those cases, you couldn't have done better, because you went with the best knowledge you had at that time, so there is really nothing to be ashamed about. The only thing you can do is to strive to be better to the best of your ability and thats basically it.

 

 

I think you shouldn't evaluate these things only through a consequentialist lense (meaning what outcome you generated or created), because it  is sometimes limited on its own and sometimes combining it with a different philosophical framework might be helpful.

For example, you can combine the valueing of your intention(s) with the value of outcome.  I think the best way to evaluate your own intentions is to check inside yourself and your feelings about it (how much you feel that you tried your best). Sometimes evaluating your own intentions by looking at the consequences what you created is limited, because there are many instances where we are giving all our best and we still fail to do something or we sometimes create chaos even though we didn't intend to do that (these would be instances, where you are ignorant but you don't know that you are ignorant or how you are ignorant or how you could have done better). 

The value of looking for feedback and looking at consequences periodically could come in, in an informative way. Those things could help you to be more aware what tools and what method(s) create what outcomes, therefore you will be more aware and less ignorant, but I don't think consequences should be the main driver in your phillosophy regarding yourself. The reason for that is because you will run into a lot of scenarios, where you will have to shit on yourself even though you tried your best, but you ignore that you tried your best, because you are only looking at the outcome and the consequences.

So in a nutshell, I think going with a philosophy where you are using feedback and the 'looking at consequences' as not the main driver but to inform you and to make you less ignorant and at the same time going with a framework where you main driver is checking and focusing on your intention(s) and checking whether you try your best or not  is one way that might be helpful.

Edited February 24, 2023 by zurew

[hyruga]

Forgive yourself just like how a parent will forgive his child no matter what the child did. Forgiveness don't have to be logical.

Forgive yourself just like how God forgives you.

 

[gettoefl]

yes self forgiveness is the hardest mountain ... i certainly have treated the best people i ever encountered abysmally and caused them untold misery and unimaginable trauma

i hold my head in shame for all this

however, that dream is long gone and a new one is afoot today, i have to focus on the social dynamics i am ensnared in today and not repeat my reckless past

every mistake i have made has prepped me to be the aware well adjusted kindly person i am now

and i am working tirelessly on removing all my blind spots and all my shortcomings

in spite of everything, whether today is a good day or not and whether i am a good person or not is entirely in my hands

i will if need be die happily tonight in that knowledge

[Thought Art]

It’s a process. Look up some books on self forgiveness and do the exercises. Also, working on your self esteem and integrity now can help. Also, so can orienting yourself towards the future.

[Bobby_2021]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I will make use of it. Most if them were quite helpful.