SD green solution to meat consumption

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

Isn't suffering an illusion created by the ego?

And since most animals aren't capable of conceptual thought how can they suffer? I acknowledge that they feel physical pain but that is different from suffering.

Why reach toward spiritual truths to rationalize why it’s okay to needlessly inflict pain and death onto non-human animals… and not okay to do the same with animals?

If animals are outside of your circle of concern, then why try to justify that with some spiritual rationale?

Just say that you don’t care that much about animals.

Yeah this is true for me. Animals are outside my circle of concern (apart from the really intelligent ones).

Are pigs part of your circle of concern? They are one of the most intelligent animals.

Also, how would you feel if you walked in on someone needlessly torturing a small bird… like a blue Jay?

Would you really have no concern at all? (I’m sure that Blue Jays aren’t a very high intellect animal)

 

[spiritual memes]

21 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Why reach toward spiritual truths to rationalize why it’s okay to needlessly inflict pain and death onto non-human animals… and not okay to do the same with animals?

I guess its a way to explain why I don't care that much. It's also not needless because we receive sustenance from it.

And also because I am selfish and want to justify my selfishness. But in my ego death states I also didn't care because in those states all suffering Is an illusion. The idea that anything is right and wrong is also an ego perspective.

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Are pigs part of your circle of concern? They are one of the most intelligent animals.

No (conveniently). I would include monkeys, elephants and dolphins. Dogs and cats as well because of human bias. The circle of concern is more of a gradient. It likely is wrong to inflict pain on animals. And the higher the consciousness, the more wrong it is. Eating meat is probably wrong but not enough for me to care. Perhaps one day, when my life is sorted, I will care. I have karma to burn through first.

39 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Also, how would you feel if you walked in on someone needlessly torturing a small bird… like a blue Jay?

Would you really have no concern at all? (I’m sure that Blue Jays aren’t a very high intellect animal)

I would have concern, but more because of the person rather than the blue jay, if someone tortures an animal, they're probably a psycho. Do you have concern when watching animals eat each other on nature documentaries? I just see it as a part of nature. Animal pain is part of nature and will always exist. Whereas human suffering is something that can be overcome.

Another big part of why I don't really care is because I'm not doing the killing. I'm just buying something that's already dead.

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, spiritual memes said:

I guess its a way to explain why I don't care that much. It's also not needless because we receive sustenance from it.

The reason why it’s needless is if a person has access to other forms of sustenance.

You can get all of your nutritional needs met on a Vegan diet… except b12 which is a bacteria found in dirt and in the animals that eat things with that dirt on them.

And this is easily supplemented.

But of course, if a person doesn’t have access to other forms of sustenance, the they would need to eat whatever is available. And this is a choice that isn’t exploitative because there is a genuine need.

And also because I am selfish and want to justify my selfishness. But in my ego death states I also didn't care because in those states all suffering Is an illusion. The idea that anything is right and wrong is also an ego perspective.

I’ve experienced ego-death as well.

But I don’t use my memory of the accoutrements of that “state” as a justification to make all my actions ethically neutral.

I could do it though. Maybe I go around randomly burning people with a curling iron. And when people ask me why, I’ll just tell them to get over it because their suffering is an illusion.

And if they tell me to stop, I’ll tell them how unawakened they are for buying into the illusion of suffering.

No (conveniently). I would include monkeys, elephants and dolphins. Dogs and cats as well because of human bias.

But before, you said intelligence was the basis for your bias.

But since it doesn’t apply to pigs (who are about as intelligent as a 3 year old child), it seems that culture and conditioning is more of the basis of your bias.

I used to work with this Vietnamese guy who was my boss. And he grew up in a small village. And he was telling me how strange it is that Americans treat dogs like pets.

Wild dogs were considered a food animal there. Dogs were not in his circle of compassion.

The circle of concern is more of a gradient. It likely is wrong to inflict pain on animals.

Who decides what is right or wrong?

And the higher the consciousness, the more wrong it is. Eating meat is probably wrong but not enough for me to care. Perhaps one day, when my life is sorted, I will care. I have karma to burn through first.

Are you sure you actually don’t care? 

I would have concern, but more because of the person rather than the blue jay, if someone tortures an animal, they're probably a psycho.

Why would that person be a psycho in your eyes if they’re torturing a low intelligence animal?

Why wouldn’t you simply see that as someone who has become enlightened to the illusory nature of suffering?

Do you have concern when watching animals eat each other on nature documentaries?

I do feel bad for them because I have a mercy-loving heart. But I understand that it is necessary. 
 

I just see it as a part of nature. Animal pain is part of nature and will always exist. Whereas human suffering is something that can be overcome.

Human suffering and animal suffering will always be… with the exception of a select few mystics.

So, my goal isn’t to eliminate suffering but to reduce it as much as I’m able.

It’s like the story of the little girl and the starfish.

A beach is littered with lots of beached starfish that will die if they don’t get back to the water. And a little girl is throwing them back into the ocean one by one.

Someone comes up to the girl and says “There are thousands of star fish washed up. You’re not going to be able to save them all. What you’re doing doesn’t matter.”

And she threw a starfish into the water into the water and said, “It mattered to that one.”

Another big part of why I don't really care is because I'm not doing the killing. I'm just buying something that's already dead.

But you are paying for the killing.  You’re effectively the one that called in the hit on the particular animal you consumed.

Would you choose to kill an animal (slaughterhouse style) to eat them when you have other non-meat options available?

 

[spiritual memes]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

The reason why it’s needless is if a person has access to other forms of sustenance.

You can get all of your nutritional needs met on a Vegan diet… except b12 which is a bacteria found in dirt and in the animals that eat things with that dirt on them.

Other forms of sustenance are much less convenient. I never feel full when only eating plant products and I already struggle to gain weight. Many others I've spoken to have had this problem as well. Its not needless, it makes life easier. 

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I’ve experienced ego-death as well.

But I don’t use my memory of the accoutrements of that “state” as a justification to make all my actions ethically neutral.

But you could. And you would technically be right. The idea that anything is good or bad is a mental construct.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I could do it though. Maybe I go around randomly burning people with a curling iron. And when people ask me why, I’ll just tell them to get over it because their suffering is an illusion.

And if they tell me to stop, I’ll tell them how unawakened they are for buying into the illusion of suffering.

You would suffer negative consequences for that. You would probably get arrested or beaten up after a while.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

But before, you said intelligence was the basis for your bias.

But since it doesn’t apply to pigs (who are about as intelligent as a 3 year old child), it seems that culture and conditioning is more of the basis of your bias.

yes. Culture and conditioning is a huge factor. As for intelligence, it is a rough estimate of how conscious an animal is. A three year old has 50 times more neurons than a pig. They just haven't been wired for problem solving yet. A pig has roughly the same number of neurons as a dog.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I used to work with this Vietnamese guy who was my boss. And he grew up in a small village. And he was telling me how strange it is that Americans treat dogs like pets.

Wild dogs were considered a food animal there. Dogs were not in his circle of compassion.

Interestingly, my parents are from an asian country and I briefly lived in an area where some people ate dogs. As I child, I was completely ok with people eating dogs but after spending time near people who kept dogs as pets, my mind slowly changed to include dogs and cats in my circle of compassion.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Who decides what is right or wrong?

me

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Are you sure you actually don’t care? 

Not enough to change my habits.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Why would that person be a psycho in your eyes if they’re torturing a low intelligence animal?

Why wouldn’t you simply see that as someone who has become enlightened to the illusory nature of suffering?

Because it's a red flag. To actually enjoy the suffering of another being requires a pretty fucked mind. People like that are generally not enlightened and will probably end up as serial killers. Enlightened people have better things to do. Although if it were a fly or a cockroach, I wouldn't give a shit.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I do feel bad for them because I have a mercy-loving heart. But I understand that it is necessary. 

A mercy loving heart isn't always the best option. If you were fully aware of the brutal reality of nature, your mercy loving heart would hurt like hell all the time. This is why vegan communities tend to overlap with antinatalism. That is not to say that I'm ruthless with no heart, but most people can't afford unlimited compassion for all beings.

It seems you are much more compassionate than I am. Perhaps one day I will come close to your level. But its probably not happening anytime soon.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Human suffering and animal suffering will always be… with the exception of a select few mystics

This is debateable. Human technology and consciousness is evolving at an exponential rate.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, my goal isn’t to eliminate suffering but to reduce it as much as I’m able.

It’s like the story of the little girl and the starfish.

A beach is littered with lots of beached starfish that will die if they don’t get back to the water. And a little girl is throwing them back into the ocean one by one.

Someone comes up to the girl and says “There are thousands of star fish washed up. You’re not going to be able to save them all. What you’re doing doesn’t matter.”

And she threw a starfish into the water into the water and said, “It mattered to that one.”

In my mind there's not much difference. The girl gets to feel good about herself but there are almost just as many starfish dying.

As for reducing suffering, there are more efficient ways of reducing suffering, like creating technology that improves peoples material conditions, raising their level of consciousness etc. An efficient way of reducing animal suffering would be to work on lab grown meat. Such methods may actually address the root cause of the problem.

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

But you are paying for the killing.  You’re effectively the one that called in the hit on the particular animal you consumed.

They were long dead before I paid for it. I'm paying for the end product.

Consider your smartphone, laptop, or electric car. The batteries on those things contains cobalt which was mined from the congo using child labour and the toxic fumes from the mines poison the child workers and the surrounding environment. Are you paying for those children to be poisoned by buying a smartphone? 

Btw as much as I am disagreeing with you, I love your content.