SD green solution to meat consumption

[StarStruck]

Let’s say that vegans got their way and we stopped killing animals. What would happen to all those millions and millions of farm animals. Would they be kept alive? Who would pay for it?

[Lila9]

There are farms in the world for animals who were saved from the meat industry. They financed mostly by donations. There is enough place for everyone.

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

Who would pay for it?

Elon musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Donald Trump, Bill gates and I want Andrew Tate to be also included.

[Jannes]

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Let’s say that vegans got their way and we stopped killing animals. What would happen to all those millions and millions of farm animals. Would they be kept alive? Who would pay for it?

They don't live long anyway and if we don't let them reproduce they are gone in a few years. 

But actually there is incredible use for them right away. 

https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_fight_desertification_and_reverse_climate_change

They can be used to reverse desertification to get more green land.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Jannes

[Carl-Richard]

The world won't suddenly go vegan. It would be a slow and gradual transition. A similar example would be when we went from using horses to cars. The population of horses was decimated, but not over night. Of course, this was a particularly big technological revolution, and the transition was rather fast, so it lead to an increase of horses being sent to slaughterhouses, but many were simply sold and repurposed and died due to more natural causes. Regardless, fewer horses were bred as the horse industry downscaled, and that would happen with the meat industry as well.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[integral]

Eggs + Milk, did you know japan feeds there chickens unique foods to change the flavor of the eggs?

 

[Michael569]

They would naturally be left to age & die without forced reproduction each year. The colonies would shrink over the decades, farmlands reused for other purposes and the idea is that farmers remain farmers but are now subsidised to grow plants even with primary focus on organic produce....right now that's a pipe dream. 

Or you could go old school and deploy animals for agricultural purposes (e.g. land ploughing) and use them to help you create organic farms for crop planting. I don't think that's necessarily unethical. The animals naturally respond positively to "exercise" and movement compared to being locked in boxes and fattened up so they can be sold for steaks. 

I think there is even some research that cattle that is being kinda pushed to move more, have higher levels of serotonin in the body. But I don't know if that's true. If you see cattle in the wild where they have large pastures, they keep moving all the time, shitting & pissing all over the place and naturally contributing to redistribution of nutrients back to the soil. They still have young but not at the rate at which they have it on meat farms where they are being impregnated 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Michael569

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Let’s say that vegans got their way and we stopped killing animals. What would happen to all those millions and millions of farm animals. Would they be kept alive? Who would pay for it?

They just wouldn’t be bred into existence anymore because it wouldn’t be profitable to do so.

[StarStruck]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

They just wouldn’t be bred into existence anymore because it wouldn’t be profitable to do so.

But is that ethical though? I think if you asked those animals if they wanted to breed they would all opt for breeding. It is a natural instinct for all living things. Even for plants.

 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

But is that ethical though? I think if you asked those animals if they wanted to breed they would all opt for breeding. It is a natural instinct for all living things. Even for plants.
 

If prior to your birth you were told that if you’re born you will only live until age 10. And you were told that your experience from birth to age 10 will be constant suffering in a slaughterhouse with other suffering children and will end with your throat being slit after you witness others around you having their throats slit.

And that you’ll also suffer all sorts of physical discomforts because you’ve been selectively bred in ways that are not conducive to your health but only to your deliciousness.

So, no. I don’t think the animal would choose that.

Also, consider this… 

Every time a man ejaculates or a woman has her period… that means that millions of people will never get to exist.

Never being born into existence is the norm.

So, I have no qualms about animals not being selectively bred into an unnaturally short life of exploitation and suffering.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Emerald

[Something Funny]

There is so much wrong with this post ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️

 

[Jannes]

@Emerald perfect explanation!

Also to mention is that to have the place to make factory farming giant surfaces of the ecosystem have to be killed for crops and factories. So we just replace the life, we don't give life where there wasn't any. 

[StarStruck]

@Emerald it is true from a human ego self that I wouldn’t choose that life but I can’t speak for animals. A lot of animals adapted to humans to be able to survive. 

I mean, would grass or plants be wanted to be spawn just to be eaten or mown down? Plants and animals have a different kind of consciousness so I think it is wrong to project human consciousness onto animals. 

In my opinion humans are made in the image of god and animals are made for mankind. We are on the top of the food chain. 

I watched your video on shame and I liked your video but aren’t you shaming carnivores by saying those things? I didn’t choose to be a flesh eater of god given animals and plants. Eventually everything both flesh eaters and plant eaters are manifested by god and he doesn’t judge. 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

@Emerald it is true from a human ego self that I wouldn’t choose that life but I can’t speak for animals. A lot of animals adapted to humans to be able to survive. 

You were speaking for animals before when you said an animal would still choose life.

I mean, would grass or plants be wanted to be spawn just to be eaten or mown down? Plants and animals have a different kind of consciousness so I think it is wrong to project human consciousness onto animals. 

As you said so yourself… plants and animals (human and non-human) have a different kind of consciousness.

So why would we project the consciousness of a plant onto an animal?

Take a meat cleaver to a dog or a cow and you will find that they respond similarly to how a human being would.

If you’ve ever spent time around farm animals, you will know that they are capable of suffering.

In my opinion humans are made in the image of god and animals are made for mankind. We are on the top of the food chain. 

Human beings made that mythos up to feel superior to nature and to feel better about our exploitations.

It’s similar to how Colonizers created the mythos of white supremacy to justify their exploitation of non-white people.

They did it so they can exploit without guilt or shame… because they made up the story that non-white people are just lesser and are fulfilling their purpose when they serve the “greater” people.

It’s the same way that humans create a mythos to justify our needless exploitation of non-human animals. That way, we can exploit without shame or guilt.

It’s the Fascistic sentiment that “We are the chosen ones, so we can exploit anyone in the outgroup to suit our goals because they were created by God to be subservient to us”

My philosophy is that, if I need to eat animals to survive, I will do it because that is that how nature and survival works. And sometimes you eat the lion and sometimes it eats you.

But it isn’t because I’m superior or that they exist to serve me. I’m just another part of nature… just like them.

But if I don’t need to eat animals to survive and I still do it, it’s just exploitation.

And I could either face the truth that I’m participating in exploitation… or I can do mental gymnastics and create justifications that lampshade that reality from me through constructing all sorts of protective narratives.

I watched your video on shame and I liked your video but aren’t you shaming carnivores by saying those things? I didn’t choose to be a flesh eater of god given animals and plants. Eventually everything both flesh eaters and plant eaters are manifested by god and he doesn’t judge. 

I’m not shaming meat-eaters by pointing out the realities of the meat and dairy industry.

And if someone is in a position where they actually can’t survive without meat, I see that as an ethical choice.

Shaming is when you say that someone is bad, evil, unworthy, irredeemable etc.

And I’m not saying any of those things. I ate animal products for 27 years of my life. And I wasn’t evil. But I was participating in needless exploitation just for pleasure.

And once I came to terms with that truth, I quit so that I can bring myself into integrity with my values. I was always against animal exploitation but I wasn’t living like I was before that.

Now, if a meat-eater feels shame when confronted with an inconvenient and uncomfortable truth about the meat and dairy industry… it may be wise for them to practice unconditional love. The antidote to shame is unconditional love.

But they’d be wise to make sure that their actions are actually in integrity with their own values.

Feeling guilt about participating in exploitation is normal. And many people create narratives to rationalize away that guilt.

But can you recognize why you feel the need to create a narrative justify your animal consumption?

 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

@Emerald perfect explanation!

Also to mention is that to have the place to make factory farming giant surfaces of the ecosystem have to be killed for crops and factories. So we just replace the life, we don't give life where there wasn't any. 

Thank you! And yes. Factory farming is terrible for biodiversity.

[StarStruck]

14 hours ago, Emerald said:

As you said so yourself… plants and animals (human and non-human) have a different kind of consciousness.

So why would we project the consciousness of a plant onto an animal?

Take a meat cleaver to a dog or a cow and you will find that they respond similarly to how a human being would.

If you’ve ever spent time around farm animals, you will know that they are capable of suffering.

Both the plant and the animal have survival mechanisms (they both want to survive and not be killed), but you show your compassion to the animal and don't the same compassion to the plant, just because the animal is closer to you as a human it is easier for you to show compassion to the animal.  But both plants and animals are our relatives, it is just that plants are more distant in terms of genetics in comparison to animals. Can't you see this bias?

Quote

Human beings made that mythos up to feel superior to nature and to feel better about our exploitations.

It’s similar to how Colonizers created the mythos of white supremacy to justify their exploitation of non-white people.

They did it so they can exploit without guilt or shame… because they made up the story that non-white people are just lesser and are fulfilling their purpose when they serve the “greater” people.

It’s the same way that humans create a mythos to justify our needless exploitation of non-human animals. That way, we can exploit without shame or guilt.

It’s the Fascistic sentiment that “We are the chosen ones, so we can exploit anyone in the outgroup to suit our goals because they were created by God to be subservient to us”

My philosophy is that, if I need to eat animals to survive, I will do it because that is that how nature and survival works. And sometimes you eat the lion and sometimes it eats you.

But it isn’t because I’m superior or that they exist to serve me. I’m just another part of nature… just like them.

But if I don’t need to eat animals to survive and I still do it, it’s just exploitation.

And I could either face the truth that I’m participating in exploitation… or I can do mental gymnastics and create justifications that lampshade that reality from me through constructing all sorts of protective narratives.

----

But can you recognize why you feel the need to create a narrative justify your animal consumption?

In the same way I create a mythos, you create a mythos about being something else (i.e we shouldn't eat living things like animals but we shouldn't show the same compassion to plants because they are not like us so I don't feel compassion towards them). You don't stand above this myth making. Aren't you seeing you are doing the same vis-à-vis native Americans versus white Americans but in your own way? Eventually you have to eat something; you have to eat something alive to be alive. I'm happy that for some people eating animals is working out but for a lot of people including myself it is not working out. Eventually we all create mythos that work out for us.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by StarStruck

[Jannes]

6 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Both the plant and the animal have survival mechanisms (they both want to survive and not be killed), but you show your compassion to the animal and don't the same compassion to the plant, just because the animal is closer to you as a human it is easier for you to show compassion to the animal.  But both plants and animals are our relatives, it is just that plants are more distant in terms of genetics in comparison to animals. Can't you see this bias?

If you have compassion for plants you would eat plants instead of animals because to eat meat you have to feed the animals way more plants then if you ate the plants yourself. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Both the plant and the animal have survival mechanisms (they both want to survive and not be killed), but you show your compassion to the animal and don't the same compassion to the plant, just because the animal is closer to you as a human it is easier for you to show compassion to the animal.  But both plants and animals are our relatives, it is just that plants are more distant in terms of genetics in comparison to animals. Can't you see this bias?

Plants and smaller animals aren't thought to have a big capacity to suffer unlike a pig or a cow who have big brains and complex emotions. A pig has the intelligence of a 3 year old child and experiences a similar range of sensations and emotions. You have to eat something, so you would try to eat that which minimizes the amount of suffering, which is why you choose to eat less complex forms of life if that is your concern.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Both the plant and the animal have survival mechanisms (they both want to survive and not be killed), but you show your compassion to the animal and don't the same compassion to the plant, just because the animal is closer to you as a human it is easier for you to show compassion to the animal.  But both plants and animals are our relatives, it is just that plants are more distant in terms of genetics in comparison to animals. Can't you see this bias?

In order to feed the animals that human beings eat, we need to kill lots of plants to feed them.

In fact, somewhere around 80% of agriculture consists of growing animal feed.

And because of this, we could reduce our plant consumption significantly by switching to Veganism because our food animals eat way more plants than we do.

And we have to destroy a lot of ecosystems to make way for crop-land to feed our food animals. So, we destroy lots of plants to make space for animal agriculture in that sense to.

So, it is more compassionate to plants to eat fewer animals.

But yes. I do have a bias where I feel more compassion towards sentient beings than I do towards non-sentient forms of life.

If I were told that I have a choice between chopping a pig in half and chopping a carrot in half… I’d have no issue with chopping the carrot in half, but would be traumatized by chopping a pig in half.

The human intellect might try to rationalize these two things as equivalent. But the human heart knows better.

In the same way I create a mythos, you create a mythos about being something else (i.e we shouldn't eat living things like animals but we shouldn't show the same compassion to plants because they are not like us so I don't feel compassion towards them).

I never said that we shouldn’t eat living things.

I said that I don’t eat living things because I don’t need to. And eating them when I don’t need to is exploitation by definition because I’d just be eating them for pleasure. 

And for me personally, exploiting animals is out of integrity with my values.

But perhaps for many people, the needless exploitation of animals is not out of alignment with their values.

And so, I just want them to be honest with themselves about that without creating other justifications for it.

I just want them to admit, “I like eating animals even if I don’t need to because my enjoyment of eating them is more important to me than their lives.”

And if that’s true for them, I want them to keep eating animals.

And if it’s not true for them and they feel uncomfortable with participating in animal exploitation, then it’s probably wise for them to bring themselves into integrity with the values they already hold and to stop participating.

It’s about self-honesty and integrity and having your actions match your already-held values.

Ask yourself why you’re trying so hard to make plants and animals equivalent to one another in sentience.

You don't stand above this myth making. Aren't you seeing you are doing the same vis-à-vis native Americans versus white Americans but in your own way? Eventually you have to eat something; you have to eat something alive to be alive. I'm happy that for some people eating animals is working out but for a lot of people including myself it is not working out. Eventually we all create mythos that work out for us.

There is a difference between a mythos and an observable truth.

Saying that animals suffer in slaughterhouses is observable.

Saying that animals get their throats slit is observable.

Saying that more plants are killed to feed animals is observable.

All I’ve spoken of here are observable truths and my values as it pertains to those truths.

And neither of those require a mythos.

My values are just about how my heart responds to witnessing these uncomfortable truths.

I see an animal suffer in videos of slaughterhouses, and I feel empathy and compassion for them. This lets me know that it would be out of alignment with my integrity to consume the fruits of the practices that cause that suffering.

 

[Arcangelo]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:06 AM, Lila9 said:

Elon musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Donald Trump, Bill gates and I want Andrew Tate to be also included.

You win!

[spiritual memes]

On 22/02/2023 at 5:33 PM, Emerald said:

As you said so yourself… plants and animals (human and non-human) have a different kind of consciousness.

So why would we project the consciousness of a plant onto an animal?

Take a meat cleaver to a dog or a cow and you will find that they respond similarly to how a human being would.

If you’ve ever spent time around farm animals, you will know that they are capable of suffering.

Isn't suffering an illusion created by the ego?

And since most animals aren't capable of conceptual thought how can they suffer? I acknowledge that they feel physical pain but that is different from suffering.

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

And so, I just want them to be honest with themselves about that without creating other justifications for it.

I just want them to admit, “I like eating animals even if I don’t need to because my enjoyment of eating them is more important to me than their lives.”

Yeah this is true for me. Animals are outside my circle of concern (apart from the really intelligent ones).