Leftism is a godless religion with the tenets of a religion

[Romanov]

It is often assumed that the right is driven by a bunch of Christofascists yet the left also has its own religion of moral superiority which they say is backed by science. However, their version of science isn’t really science-it’s scientism. They don’t admit that science is merely provisional, nor are they willing to question science much which ironically is anti-science. Since leftism is godless but has all the tenets of a religion, I find it to be much more dangerous because on paper who wants to be against unity, peace, and love? The left usually strawmans this regarding conservatives as being against all these things but that is simply not true. I have asked many conservatives if they stand for unity and inclusiveness and the main answer I was getting was: yes as long as it’s not a fake or forced type of unity. The majority of atheists are also liberal and one of their main arguments is how religion is responsible for so many deaths. I would like to mention that communism is responsible for even more deaths than the crusades, and inquisitions combined. 

There’s also studies which found that conservative brains are actually not more fearful than liberal ones: https://www.livescience.com/conservatives-not-more-fearful-than-liberals.html

It is also generally accepted around here that conservatives are lower on the spiral dynamics model or lower consciousness which is a misconception. Leo stated that the two parties are asymmetrical with conservatives being less developed, this is also a misconception. On the surface it looks like that is the case, but one thing that’s not brought into question is the capacity to fake such higher development. Time and time again the left has been called out for virtue signaling, it’s a front that is put up to deceive people more easily.

Are conservatives more simplistic? I’d say so, but that does not make them more dumb. Leonardo Davinci once said, “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” 

 

 

 

 

[something_else]

1 hour ago, Romanov said:

yes as long as it’s not a fake or forced type of unity

In my experience they are often only for unity as long as it doesn't encroach upon their lives i.e. "gay people can get married, but I think it's disgusting when I see two men kissing on my TV, keep it to yourselves". That's a very common conservative viewpoint which shows the issue. It's a superficial unity.

Unity and inclusivity has to be an active process because it goes against humanity's natural tendency to exclude people, and most conservatives love excluding people.

1 hour ago, Romanov said:

I would like to mention that communism is responsible for even more deaths than the crusades, and inquisitions combined. 

The communism that the world has seen has been deeply SD stage Blue. It wasn't really progressive or liberal. It was on the same level of authoritarian consciousness as religions were.

 

1 hour ago, Romanov said:

It is also generally accepted around here that conservatives are lower on the spiral dynamics model or lower consciousness which is a misconception. Leo stated that the two parties are asymmetrical with conservatives being less developed, this is also a misconception.

You can be conservative and developed, but most conservatives are not developed. Right now the average conservative in younger generations end up following the alt-right, or Tate and other such influencers. In older generations, the average conservative votes for Trump or Brexit.

Conservatives have a really hard time integrating stage green in particular.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by something_else

[zurew]

Whats your overall point with this thread? You are throwing around a lot of different kind of arguments and topics.

[Romanov]

39 minutes ago, zurew said:

Whats your overall point with this thread? You are throwing around a lot of different kind of arguments and topics.

I am shedding light on different blind spots concerning leftism and conservatives. The left is typically against fundamentalist religion (I am too), but a religion can take many different forms without necessarily having a god. 

[Romanov]

Somethin_else, there is only one good thing about Tate: preventing cuckholding. I think it’s easier to tone down masculinity than to build it up. The amount of damage that cuckholding does is far worse. It takes strong men to be able to lead and do something about misogyny. However a man who is open to allowing a train ran on his wife is not only the epitome of lack of integrity, but totally impotent when it comes to standing up for anything. They propagate degenerative behavior in women by affirming that it is ok for them to objectify themselves for money. This ends up hurting their self-esteem just as much of not more than those who are misogynistic. Those who write off cuckholding as a fetish is the same as writing off physical abuse as a fetish imo. These people take “open mindedness” to a level where their brains fall out.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Romanov

[Jodistrict]

There are also religious leftists.  Look up “Liberation Theology”.    Nobody is more materialistic in their philosophy than the elites of the corporate state who worship progress and efficiency.  

[sholomar]

As a former conservative, I actually agree that conservatives are less developed on a spiral dynamic scale. However, given the nature of our species the leftist ideals don't work either. What works is checks and balances against our nature to keep power or wealth from concentrating into  too few hands. Beyond that, let people live their lives and give them the freedom to explore themselves and things will turn out in the end. You might not be able to save everyone but you're never going to save everyone ... that's not the purpose of incarnating in this reality.

I really like that recent quote from Jordan Peterson... 

"These monolithic centralists who believe central planning and efficiency will defeat distributed creativity, they're just wrong one after the other." - Peterson

 

 

 

 

 

[zazen]

Reality is biologically / physically conservative yet mentally / spiritually liberal. The level of form / material has limits, is finite, conserved by form. The level of the formless / spiritual is limitless, infinite, liberal. Right is masculine,yang. Left is feminine,yin.

To deny objective physical reality for the subjective metaphysical reality is where the far left get things wrong. They choose the fluid formless essence of God over the external form of God. Trying to impose the spiritual fluid realm onto the physical realm of fixity is the issue. Lost in translation of realms.

Though the soul is boundless, we are bound in flesh. Though spirituality has subjectivity, we are still subject to the physical, for we are incarnate. The duality - awareness of it, articulation of it, understanding of it, and living with it is the art that we need.  

Edited February 24, 2023 by zazen

[Emerald]

Everyone has a religion… some religions are spiritual and some are not.

And if a person is unaware that they’re following a religion, they will unconsciously push it on others because they see it as an unquestioned good.

They will assume that the ethics of their religion are simply the laws upon which reality is governed.

And they will make no effort to reach out and prostelatize… only to judge.

For example, if a person’s religion is that productivity is an unquestioned good… they will judge anyone who is unproductive who doesn’t match up to the tenets of that religion.

They don’t even know they are following a religion, and so they simply judge others for not following the rules that they’ve projected onto reality.

Leftists tend to follow the religion of justice and fairness.

They see justice and fairness as an unquestioned good. And they judge anyone who doesn’t match up to the tenets of the religion of justice and fairness.

They think anyone who’s being unfair/unjust is going against some existential rule of reality. 

And because they see justice and fairness as an unquestioned good, they feel incredulous at the idea that they’d have to market that idea to others. They assume, “people SHOULD already know better.”

And they forget that standing on a soap box is not an effective tool for marketing  and converting others to their religion.

And they become as ineffective as the person waving the Bible on the side of the road and shaming all the passers-by as dirty Godless sinners.

The person who sees their “religion” as an unquestioned good will be terrible at converting others to that religion… and will actually turn people off from it.

This is a reality that Leftists need to swallow if they want to galvanize a movement towards fairness and justice.

The FAR Right (meaning self-proclaimed Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists) are a lot more aware that their views are not an unquestioned good.

So, they tend to do MUCH better marketing for their religion.

They know that the religion of hatred is a hard sell… so they package their messaging in ways that the average person won’t spot the pill inside the peanut butter.

[Leo Gura]

If you look at the level of cognitive development of conservative vs progressive political pundits, it's easy to see that progressives offer far more nuanced and more developed takes on our political problems, while conservatives mostly engage in fearmongering about culture war stuff.

Conservative political leadership in America is uniquely corrupt, stupid, and shameless. Which is why people like Trump or Bush don't exist on the left.

Yes, the left is more developed overall, however that does not make the left right on every issue. Leftism is an ideology and it suffers from the limits of that. The issue here is that your bias prevents you from seeing all the problems of the right as your mind gets distracted by the left.

Atheism is one step above theism in development.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you look at the level of cognitive development of conservative vs progressive political pundits, it's easy to see that progressives offer far more nuanced and more developed takes on our political problems, while conservatives mostly engage in fearmongering about culture war stuff.

Conservative political leadership in America is uniquely corrupt, stupid, and shameless. Which is why people like Trump or Bush don't exist on the left.

Yes, the left is more developed overall, however that does not make the left right on every issue. Leftism is an ideology and it suffers from the limits of that. The issue here is that your bias prevents you from seeing all the problems of the right as your mind gets distracted by the left.

Atheism is one step above theism in development.

Didn't you say one of your vids that there have been periods in history where the left has done some abominable things? Would communism/socialism in the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, China, and Venezuela be an example or examples of the left having caused more harm to people than the right?

Or was communism/socialism in those countries actually far-right, not left-wing? 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Hardkill

[Jodistrict]

The Western countries were supporting apartheid in South Africa, while the communist and socialist countries were opposing it. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Didn't you say one of your vids that there have been periods in history where the left has done some abominable things?

Of course

Quote

Would communism/socialism in the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, China, and Venezuela be an example or examples of the left having caused more harm to people than the right?

Yes

Quote

Or was communism/socialism in those countries actually far-right, not left-wing? 

I am willing to acknowledge it was left wing. Although not the current version of the left wing we have in Western democracies.

What you have to take into account when thinking about this issue is that the ideals and values of Communism are still an example of very high levels of development. It will take the average person a lifetime of development just to adopt a value like economic fairness and equality.

Of course that doesn't mean your good values won't lead you off a cliff.

The problem with Communism is that it is way too advanced of a value system for 95% of humans to embody. But the desire to embody it is an admirable thing. You're just too selfish to actualize it. The right-wing, on the other hand, is not even developed enough to desire the values of Communism. Not because they are smarter than Communism, but because they are too selfish and ignorant to even care.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The problem with Communism is that it is way too advanced of a value system for 95% of humans to embody. But the desire to embody it is an admirable thing. You're just too selfish to actualize it. The right-wing, on the other hand, is not even developed enough to desire the values of Communism. Not because they are smarter than Communism, but because they are too selfish and ignorant to even care.

A communal life is still practiced by indigenous tribes, some who still have no use for money.  It was our natural condition.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

A communal life is still practiced by indigenous tribes, some who still have no use for money.  It was our natural condition.

That is largely an illusion because that way of living doesn't scale.

What worked at those scales does not work at our current scales.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course

Yes

I am willing to acknowledge it was left wing. Although not the current version of the left wing we have in Western democracies.

What you have to take into account when thinking about this issue is that the ideals and values of Communism are still an example of very high levels of development. It will take the average person a lifetime of development just to adopt a value like economic fairness and equality.

Of course that doesn't mean your good values won't lead you off a cliff.

The problem with Communism is that it is way too advanced of a value system for 95% of humans to embody. But the desire to embody it is an admirable thing. You're just too selfish to actualize it. The right-wing, on the other hand, is not even developed enough to desire the values of Communism. Not because they are smarter than Communism, but because they are too selfish and ignorant to even care.

So, it's not just that left wing is usually more right than the right wing. The main point is that we ultimately want to get to a point where the whole world is able to establish absolute equal rights and total economic fairness for everyone around the world. Ideally, we want to eliminate all forms of tyranny, correct?

Edited February 25, 2023 by Hardkill

[Hardkill]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is largely an illusion because that way of living doesn't scale.

What worked at those scales does not work at our current scales.

That's why tribalism and tribal warfare has always occurred around the world since the dawn of mankind. Many native America tribes got very violent towards one another in the old days. 

Furthermore, there have been many instances during ancient times, where a member of a tribe, in any part of the world, would not hesitate to harm or kill one of their own if they even suspect that person to be a traitor or some other kind of bad person. There are still some tribes who still act that way in the middle east. Maybe some other native tribes in Africa, South America, Central America, North America, Australia, Indonesia, Asia, Europe, are are sometimes that way too.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

we ultimately want to get to a point where the whole world is able to establish absolute equal rights and total economic fairness for everyone around the world. Ideally, we want to eliminate all forms of tyranny, correct?

Something like that, but you have to be very realistic about how much is possible there. The goal is not equality for its own sake but justice and fairness, so if you earn it, you will have more. But you must really earn it.

Basically it's a gradual process of eliminating various sneaky forms of theft. But just because you've eliminated all theft does not mean everyone will be equal. But it would be nice to live in a world where no theft ever occurred, or if it did, it was swiftly punished.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Something like that, but you have to be very realistic about how much is possible there. The goal is not equality for its own sake but justice and fairness, so if you earn it, you will have more. But you must really earn it.

Basically it's a gradual process of eliminating various sneaky forms of theft. But just because you've eliminated all theft does not mean everyone will be equal. But it would be nice to live in a world where no theft ever occurred, or if it did, it was swiftly punished.

Theft is a good angle to view it though.

In terms of equality, I view it like this…

5 uneven fingers form a hand… but if your thumb is two miles long and your pointer is an inch long, there is a problem there that needs to be addressed.

But equally important to the cause of fairness is getting rid of factors that weaken the collective of humanity. 

And that can be tricky because you want enough challenge to foster resiliency in the populace… and enough slack to make sure that people (especially children) aren’t being traumatized and beaten down by poor conditions to the point where they become adults that pass on their hurts to others.

Poverty weakens the collective in so many ways. So I think it is best to guarantee the basics.

But the question that stands in my mind is…

Can we craft a societal system that works ergonomically to optimize the strength, resilience, health, and wisdom of the collective?

[aurum]

55 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Can we craft a societal system that works ergonomically to optimize the strength, resilience, health, and wisdom of the collective?

That is basically what humanity has been doing for the last several thousand years. We’ve are constantly evolving our collective ego strategies. So it seems almost certain it will continue to evolve in that direction. We just have to keep nudging it forward.