Language Paradigm

[Bronsoval]

In Leo's recent video, he talks about breaking out of the paradigm of language.  How the fuck is this possible without ceasing all forms of communication?  If you decide to stop talking or writing, you still have nonverbal communication to get your point across.  If you stop that... what else do you have?   Help, my brain just imploded!  My wife did not talk until she was 6 years old.  They thought something was wrong with her.  It turns out that her sister knew her so well that she was able to do all of the talking for her, so she didn't need to speak.  Maybe its something like this?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Bronsoval

[Consept]

I think its more about becoming aware that language or descriptions of things arent the actual thing. For example if you label a tree a tree it almost serves as a way to dismiss that particular tree because youve already defined what a tree is, so you dont experience the individual tree for what it is. We tend to categorise a lot as humans which is why we make sweeping generlisations about race for example.

As long as you make these generalisations youll always be stuck in the world you create around them and miss out on whats really there 

[Nahm]

Practice thinking in images instead of words, then eventually try thinking in emotions, then eventually non thinking.

[Bronsoval]

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

Practice thinking in images instead of words, then eventually try thinking in emotions, then eventually non thinking.

I have occasionally reached the point of non thinking.  It is amazing to not think, and to just be.  My ego wont yet allow me to remain in this state for very long

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Bronsoval said:

I have occasionally reached the point of non thinking.  It is amazing to not think, and to just be.  My ego wont yet allow me to remain in this state for very long

It took me many years. Ego still comes back on occasion,  but it's different and much better. I want more clarity between ego and personality. I want to know if more can be let go of consistently.

[Leo Gura]

@Bronsoval Breaking out the paradigm of language has little to do with stopping physical speech or writing. Those are external behaviors which don't address the root paradigm at all. You can not speak for 10 years, but that doesn't mean you've escaped the language paradigm.

Seeing through the paradigm is the key. There is nothing wrong with speech or writing as long as you understand what they are; that they are constructions; that these constructions come with certain consequences and shape your perception of reality.

So the difference is between a person who is fully conscious that language is a paradigm vs a person who is not (99.9999% of people).

Breaking out of a paradigm does NOT mean you stop all behaviors commonly associated with it. You can still eat, sleep, shop, write, reason, believe, speak, teach, read, learn, do math, do science, pray, etc. No external action is ever prohibited by reality.

[Bronsoval]

Intersting! So a consequence of language may be that it is culturally rooted and generational.  Another consequence may be that some fucking language is is fucking prohibited.  Am i getting close?

[alyra]

things I think about language are the following. they may help but it's hard to experess them really, or even honestly, it's hard to capture these experiences into an idea in the first place. 

 

I had to teach myself to think in words. I naturally, thought in. well, in something else. I've said before, that it's been in concepts, or in emotions, or in a tactile sensation which is not exactly comparable to touch. with these internal processes of thinking, I've been able to create and process and explore rich worlds, and deep contemplations, and act as the muse for conversation, despite naturally  not thinking in language itself. I just held onto the ideas and memories and etc. in a different way. nowadays I think a lot in words however, it is a lot easier to interact with the lingual world this way, using language itself. 

 

 

next thought is understanding that things are completely and utterly formless. we create form with our... well I've always said with our mind but as Leo points out even our mind and the creating of forms, is a form we've created our selves! I've recently said to a friend, that I've never liked the phrase "think outside the box" because as a creative, "outside the box" thinker so to speak, that just really doesn't capture what's being done. at least not my style of it so to speak. that it is more like, creating my own box. destroying or ignoring the box. I could compare any two things as if they are indistinguishable. the difference between two "separate" identities we form, is only by the lines we've imagined ourselves. note that by "identity" I am refering to every single word as well, not just the concepts of "male" and "Hispanic" and "comedian" but also the identity of "the" or "hello" or "meow". 

 

 

 

I think this is the last thought I'm sharing - it is.... hm, about how what I choose to name "understanding" and "knowing" are not the same at all. I say that "knowing" is holding a fact, being able to recite information, whether that recital is precise or always paraphrased. but this form "knowing" is not "understanding" understanding is what happens when we are able to put the food into our mouth. or when someone says our name and we look up to see who is addressing us. I used action to show it but here is my attempt to esplain - understanding is how we truly know a thing, when the words we are reciting are no longer a recital but instead an explanation of... well, understanding. 

let me do this another way - at the moment after studying when we experience a moment of insight and go "oooh! now I know" that is how we might exclaim that we've suddenly come to understand. before we only knew, we had flash cards and where memorizing information. 

so the thing about understaning is, that understanding can never ever ever be transferred from one person to another. or from a book to our self. understanding is only ever created by our own labor of contemplation. With language, we can only ever try to share knowledge, but only hope that in sharing of knowledge we somehow assist the listener in finding that spark of understanding. or perhaps they've already spent the effort to understand before - and so they understand what we are saying. language is common knowledge. we trust that when we say "rose" the other person understands the same thing we are pointing to. but we have no way of truly knowing - what "rose" that person imagines. maybe it is a design. maybe it is a black rose instead of a white rose. maybe it is a person they know or used to know. maybe they think we are talking about waking up in the morning! 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by aryberry

[Damien]

I find grammar to be a hidden in plain sight thing that we never reconsider. It is quite funny how in most languages we use of subject verb complement structure. This embedded duality of a subject doing something or having something happening to it and then there is a complement on the receiving end of the stick. The quality of the interaction between the two being described by a verb.

One of my first encounter with the paradigm of language was when someone from Japan was trying to tell me about the "umami" taste. In Japan the same four taste as in western cultures are used  (salt, sugar, bitter and acidic) but they have a 5th one (umami). It would translate to tasty or savory. My friend trying to tell me about it was just like Leo trying to tell us about enlightenment, zero frame of reference on my side. 

This situation highlighted the arbitrary taxonomy that language is. Because unlike enlightenment I probably tasted "umami" in my life, I just never thought of taste in that way and wouldn't classify it as umami. 

Languages obviously have their limitation but I find them to be surprisingly powerful. It's crazy in my opinion that when I say "red" most people tend to agree on what it is. Even though we have no way of being sure that what we are experiencing is in any way similar.

 

[William Waters]

To All...

One of my favorite subjects Language, Symbolic expression of all kinds...

I have, what may be considered by many, somewhat radical things to "say" about "saying", a really tricky business...

There is, in most of our minds (perhaps subconsciously), a conviction that there is an equivalence of symbols (especially language) to "reality", even all realities that may be found or exist,  given that we can find or create the proper word or symbol....

But, in fact, Language is more like artwork or even finger painting, that we use to attempt to express our experience or perceptions...

Our forgetting that that there is no correspondence (at all) to reality in our symbols, except as we imagine and/or agree with each other, is perhaps the greatest threat to the continuation of our species that exists...

History is our witness to the willingness we have to attack, and defend at all costs any who challenge our "words" and what we think they stand for or mean...

It really appears that there is little interest in making new or fresh adaptations to what we call "language"....

So, the making of observations (as above) does not necessarily validate the choice of expression or necessarily provide the wisdom of how to proceed... (my disclaimer ;))

 

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by William Waters
A little humor...