This Small Clip Made Me Question Buddhism & Meditation

[r0ckyreed]

I wanted to share with you all the first video clip that made me question Buddhism and meditation.  Ever since I understood the first 30 seconds of this video, I had an insight that Buddhism and meditation alone are not conducive to the highest levels of intelligence.  

I always wondered why I had meditation has stunted my memory.  I realized that if you stop thinking, you stunt your intelligence, and you stunt your memories.  Memories require repetition to keep them alive and so does learning.  Leo even pointed this out in his new video on Insight, where somewhere in the video, he stated that he cannot meditate because he is too curious and that Buddhist monks simply aren't that curious about life.

This made me wonder that Buddhism is about attaining Nirvana, some fairytale of an end of suffering, rather than the goal of pure understanding.

Watch the first 30 seconds of this video.  Meditating for long periods of time comes at a post.  That cost is pure understanding and intelligence.  What I have gained from meditation is calmness and peace of mind, but I would not exchange that for intelligence/understanding.

Then, of course, Jed McKenna helped me to see the problems within Buddhism and meditation.

I still meditate from time to time, and it is helpful, but 10-20 minutes a day is all I think is necessary.  

The main reason why I meditate now is to cultivate my ability to be joyful, aware of the beauty all around me, and to be satisfied with nothing.  I think meditation is really important for happiness and peace of mind but excessive meditation comes at a cost.  

I no longer expect any deep insights from meditation anymore.  I get those through observation and contemplation.  

Here is the video below! Enjoy!

 

[Rahra]

Meditation is only a mean to reach a goal, when you reach the goal, meditation is not needed anymore.

Stillness and silence of the mind is a vital thing, but God is also Active and will keep giving your mind Knowledge and Truth.

If Buddhism denies the existence of God, it’s falsehood. Every spiritual teaching and sect, every religion from the beginning of time has affirmed the existence of God. They are right, of course.

As for Buddha, he’s overrated. Mohammad and Jesus were more God-Realized.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Rahra

[Rafael Thundercat]

If you meet Buddha in you way to God kick him in the ass and keep going.

[gettoefl]

there is foreground and there is background, mediation moves you from the latter to the former

you see real not false

you don't need any memory, memory is a snapshot of the past which will dilute the luminosity of this here now

fine to have some memory of course

[aurum]

@r0ckyreed

Personally I don’t see much of a contradiction in my own meditation practice.

My morning sits are easily where I get much of my best contemplative work done. It’s definitely not just a mental blank. But I am meditating.

I’ve even named it “contemplative meditation” because that is what it feels like.

Edited February 8, 2023 by aurum

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

@r0ckyreed

Personally I don’t see much of a contradiction in my own meditation practice.

My morning sits are easily where I get much of my best contemplative work done. It’s definitely not just a mental blank. But I am meditating.

I’ve even named it “contemplative meditation” because that is what it feels like.

That's great!  I guess there isn't much of a difference between contemplation and analytical meditation.  What I meant by "meditation" was the practices that are designed to still and shut off the mind.  Of course, it is a good practice to do and it is healthy to shut off the mind at times.  But anything to an excess can become troublesome.  I still meditate, but after that, I contemplate and USE my mind more rather than trying to shut it off. I think contemplation is far more practical and easier to do and has quicker results than meditation. At least, that is how it is for me at this moment.

Edited February 9, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[aurum]

18 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I still meditate, but after that, I contemplate and USE my mind more rather than trying to shut it off. I think contemplation is far more practical and easier to do and has quicker results than meditation. At least, that is how it is for me at this moment.

I find they can complement each other.

The reality is that your contemplation will not be that effective if you are lost in a bunch of survival monkey-mind. Meditation and calming the nervous system can help with this. It gets you into a better state from which to process and receive insight.

Of course there are other ways too. I find just taking a nice, long walk gets me in the right state. Leo has mentioned how he likes driving. I agree in general that the real benefits seem to be more from the contemplation itself than just purely shutting off the mind.

[Moksha]

Meditation isn’t about killing the elephant, but about learning to ride it where you want to go.

[Chives99]

waking up isnt about knowing things, but to transcend the ego and also to develop the psyche requires plenty of knowing .

[Jordan]

Which Buddhist practices are designed to still or shut off the mind? Vipassana or focusing on one point? I think the meditation I have done has not decreased my thinking, I am just more aware of when I am repeating thought patterns and realize when it is unnecessary and start focusing on another topic. You think more about what you are thinking about. I have not noticed any memory troubles. I think it improves memory a bit for me. You are able to see you memories more clearly. I usually do mindfulness with labeling after focusing on one point but try out many types like vipassana, strong determination sitting, do nothing, fire Kasina, mantra. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Jordan

[vishnusavestheday]

I'm always chalking it up to a translation failure of culture nowadays. Meditation can also be a form of study, and any form of study can be either imaginative or ceasing.

 

I fail to see how clear-cut modernized translations of any historical figure or tradition provide accurate depictions of enlightenment. Wisdom tends to be extremely diluted. Language itself...

 

The Middle Way seems more centralized around the cessation of a worrisome imagination and the cultivation of loving awareness... it seems continuously apparent that us kiddos of the actualized forum forget that Buddhism is about the Middle Way--not the practice of conscious being, not the method of meditation, and not the goal of Nirvana.

 

It's comical, because people always repeat the same negative sentiments about Buddhism-- as if Buddhism is causing their illusion! 

 

Get your head out of your ass! You can't really be aware of the ideas you are suggesting to yourself! We wander in the dark!

[gettoefl]

17 hours ago, gettoefl said:

there is foreground and there is background, mediation moves you from the latter to the former

you see real not false

you don't need any memory, memory is a snapshot of the past which will dilute the luminosity of this here now

fine to have some memory of course

 

[_Archangel_]

@r0ckyreed if meditation made you lose lucidity and memeory chanches are that YOU are doing it wrong.
the opposite is more likely to happen with good practice.

don't be so quick to extend you personal challenges to a universal standard

23 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

I no longer expect any deep insights from meditation anymore.  I get those through observation and contemplation.  

That's exacly the problem! Meditation if done wright IS observation and contemplation.
Buddhist Meditation isn't passivity. The "letting go part" should come way down the line.
Get a copy of the The Mind Illuminated and see for yourself.

[Moksha]

16 hours ago, Jordan said:

I think the meditation I have done has not decreased my thinking, I am just more aware of when I am repeating thought patterns and realize when it is unnecessary and start focusing on another topic. You think more about what you are thinking about.

Recognizing thought patterns is the first step toward disidentifying from them. Rather than thinking about what you are thinking about, observe the thoughts without judgment. Eventually, they subside and become a murmur compared to the cacophony they used to be.

[r0ckyreed]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:09 AM, _Archangel_ said:

That's exacly the problem! Meditation if done wright IS observation and contemplation.

Ok. I agree contemplation can be considered a form of analytical meditation. The meditation I am criticizing is a anapanasati, where all you do is focus on the breath and then when you notice a thought, you keep bringing it back. Just imagine what this trains your mind to do if you do it long-term. It trains your mind to not think. I have had creative ideas and questions, but following the practice, I just noticed them then return to breath. At times, I would forget the ideas I had and I would notice myself naturally returning my attention to breath instead of instead of letting my mind wander. Mindwandering is essential to creativity, learning, and memory. Brute concentration has its limits. I don’t consider meditation and contemplation the same in this case. Anapanasati if done to the extreme can stunt learning, creativity, and memory. How can we learn, create, or remember anything if we cannot engage with our thoughts? This is my critique of meditation and people who are anti-thinkers.

I do anapanasati only 10 minutes because of what I have stated above. I also do analytical meditation (I.e., contemplation), visualization meditation, running meditation, and satisfaction meditation.

I believe meditation done moderately is good. But too much can create blood clots, sedentary lifestyle, and can limit my memories and learning. Being too present comes at a cost. The cost is lacking a vision for the future and slowly forgetting the past.

Edited February 10, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[_Archangel_]

@r0ckyreed

12 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

The meditation I am criticizing is a anapanasati, where all you do is focus on the breath and then when you notice a thought, you keep bringing it back.

i reiterate what i wrote. you have a wrong idea of what anapanasati is. The technique done right expecially in the beginning is very mind consuming because of the many precautions you need to mantain.

17 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Anapanasati if done to the extreme can stunt learning, creativity, and memory. How can we learn, create, or remember anything if we cannot engage with our thoughts?

Again, wrong. based on nothing.
Search on google how many creative people practice a form of meditation and it helps them with creation.
An exemple:

 

[gettoefl]

creativity is no mind god mode flow state

that which meditation activates

[r0ckyreed]

26 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

you have a wrong idea of what anapanasati is.

How is it wrong? It is literally what is stated in The Mind Illuminated?

26 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@r0ckyreed

i reiterate what i wrote. you have a wrong idea of what anapanasati is. The technique done right expecially in the beginning is very mind consuming because of the many precautions you need to mantain.

Again, wrong. based on nothing.
Search on google how many creative people practice a form of meditation and it helps them with creation.
An exemple:

 

I don’t deny that creative people don’t use anapanasati or that it is useless. I doubt these creative folks are doing anymore than 1 hour a day. They do the meditation and then they forget about it and do their thinking. If all they did was anapanasati like a monk at a monastery, they wouldn’t be writing their books.

At some point, you have to stand up and think deliberately.

Edited February 10, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[gettoefl]

thinking is the rehashing of other people ideas just as an AI does

your true work begins when chatgpt gives you its answer

it curates i create

Edited February 10, 2023 by gettoefl

[_Archangel_]

@gettoefl

28 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

How is it wrong? It is literally what is stated in The Mind Illuminated?

Thats the base, but then so much stuff is built on it, the book is 500p + for a reason hehe.
Just mindlessly returning to the breath is not enough to achieve insight.

34 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I don’t deny that creative people don’t use anapanasati or that it is useless. I doubt these creative folks are doing anymore than 1 hour a day. They do the meditation and then they forget about it and do their thinking. If all they did was anapanasati like a monk at a monastery, they wouldn’t be writing their books.

If you have 10 hours a day to dedicate to meditation chances are that writing a book isn't even a priority, and all you care is awakening. i don't think a monk would want to be the new NY best seller, otherwise it wouldn't be a monk.

And even so, to desprove your logic, just look at the Sutras: Those monks who wrote the must have practiced religiously for hours, and yet came up with those highly cerebral works theory/practice/poetry.

For all the householder cases, even 2-3 hours a day can co-exist with a creative life. Look at Frank Yang's arc for example, but there are many more.