The path of "god-realization" seems like a waste of time.

[The Blade]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Are you serious?  You make a mockery of God.  If you realized directly that God was real you would never be the same again.  The biggest thing is you will never fear death again because you will know it is an illusion.   You might actually want to jump in front of a train because you will know God is Infinite Love.  But I don't recommend that.  The reason is once you have become Infinite you also realize that your finite life is really the pinnacle of your existence.   It is in imperfection and finitude that God finds solace.   And thus you will cherish your finitude because in that is your perfection but also in that you can have imperfection.  So God can have his cake and eat it too.

Here's where I go Socrates on your ass.

How do you know?

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, The Blade said:

Here's where I go Socrates on your ass.

How do you know?

Here's where I go Socrates on your ass.  It's about not knowing.   And in not knowing you will leave Socrates in the dust - a figment of your mind.   But know this- do you really want that? Because you have to die to become the Truth  

Edited February 12, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, The Blade said:

I think there is almost inarguable benefit to peeling away the layers of the onion... I am just not connecting the final product with "God", though I'd certainly call it divine.

 

Hmm.  If Realization were to use the analogy of a video game, let's say we're all characters within the game, and our universe is the map.  So, the more inner work the characters do, the more they see what we really are.  Code.  Everything and everyone who has ever lived within the game all share much of the same code, and are essentially connected.  Regardless, it would be strange for the character to make this realization and then say "I am the coder".  No, you're the code.  Divine?  Sure.  Connected to all?  That makes sense.  However, the coder could still be out there.

Maybe you can poke holes in this game analogy, I'm sure there's a point in it where I went left and you'd go right.

Hope this is helpful. I came across it earlier today, from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:

The seeker is he who is in search of himself.

Give up all questions except one: "Who am I?" After all, the only fact you are sure of is that you are. The "I am" is certain. The "I am this" is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality.

To know what you are, you must first investigate and know what you are not.

Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings, thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.

The clearer you understand on the level of mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker will you come to the end of your search and realize that you are the limitless being.

You seem to be realizing intuitively that ultimate reality cannot be described. God, and every other word, inevitably falls short. People sometimes fall into conceptual traps because they don't realize this. At best, the mind can only say what reality is not. You see your true nature through direct realization. When it happens, you realize that it is beyond any beliefs, words, or spiritual texts. As the Upanishads say, "Words turn back frightened."

I like your video game analogy. The key for the character is to realize the coder is within its code, but the coder is not confined to its code. After awakening, what you perceive is you, but you are not all that you perceive.

For some reason, I'm on an Einstein kick this week. As he said:

Nature shows us only the tail of the lion. But I do not doubt that the lion belongs to it even though he cannot at once reveal himself because of his enormous size.

[Sincerity]

20 hours ago, The Blade said:

Hmm, what I mean by embers is an underlying, unbreakable mental state which keeps you from being swallowed by darkness.  It doesn't necessarily mean you'll be chipper and doing cartwheels all the time, but nothing can genuinely break you.  The embers lay at the bottom of the fire, hardly noticeable, giving off very little light; these beneficial traits aren't very obvious to others, or sometimes even yourself.  But the embers have a tendency to slowly, surely burn up anything as fuel; good experiences, bad experiences, horrific experiences.  With these embers you'll surely still have days where you're dragged down, but not for long, and never very seriously.

Oh, sorry. I completely misunderstood what You meant by bed of embers. Also I thought of ambers, lol...

20 hours ago, The Blade said:

Do you think your experience laid a bed of embers like this?

I'd be unwise to make such a judgement as of yet. Nothing has really broken me so far, but it's only been 2 weeks. Most of the benefits I mentioned in the post are still active - to a lesser degree, but they are. However, I do predict that something will break me one day. I kind of intuit a storm is coming... I've been noticing clues. But who knows.

Looking at this overall experience, how long it's lasted and how powerful it's been, I think that with further work "I" might really reach a more "permanent" level of highly elevated consciousness so that "I" can't be broken anymore... because there is absolutely no "me" left.

I will burn myself to the ground. With Love.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Sincerity

[Matthew85]

@The Blade Waste of time is a concept you are creating. You can enjoy being lost in the dream you are constructing or decide to awaken from the dream. Both are equally valid explorations. It's all up to you. 

[The Blade]

22 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Here's where I go Socrates on your ass.  It's about not knowing.

Well put .  Unfortunately, the statements you've made aren't about embracing not knowing.  Your statements seem to assume that you do know.  So I ask, how do you know?

Embracing the not knowing is the primary driving force behind my original post.  I love not knowing, just as much as I love [the veil of] knowing.

Could you poke some holes in my words, where do you think I'm going wrong?

 

21 hours ago, Moksha said:

Hope this is helpful. I came across it earlier today, from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:

The seeker is he who is in search of himself.

Give up all questions except one: "Who am I?" After all, the only fact you are sure of is that you are. The "I am" is certain. The "I am this" is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality.

To know what you are, you must first investigate and know what you are not.

Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings, thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.

The clearer you understand on the level of mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker will you come to the end of your search and realize that you are the limitless being.

You seem to be realizing intuitively that ultimate reality cannot be described. God, and every other word, inevitably falls short. People sometimes fall into conceptual traps because they don't realize this. At best, the mind can only say what reality is not. You see your true nature through direct realization. When it happens, you realize that it is beyond any beliefs, words, or spiritual texts. As the Upanishads say, "Words turn back frightened."

I like your video game analogy. The key for the character is to realize the coder is within its code, but the coder is not confined to its code. After awakening, what you perceive is you, but you are not all that you perceive.

For some reason, I'm on an Einstein kick this week. As he said:

Nature shows us only the tail of the lion. But I do not doubt that the lion belongs to it even though he cannot at once reveal himself because of his enormous size.

You're exceptional at explaining these concepts, I appreciate the help.  I've never heard of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj but he speaks with great clarity.  He seems to embody the Neti, Neti strategy you mentioned before.  I will try to dig deep into this method and see what is revealed.

So, with the video game analogy, you mentioned that the key is for the character to realize the coder is within its code, but is not confined to its code.  How does one know that the coder is within the code?

 

2 hours ago, Sincerity said:

Oh, sorry. I completely misunderstood what You meant by bed of embers. Also I thought of ambers, lol...

I'd be unwise to make such a judgement as of yet. Nothing has really broken me so far, but it's only been 2 weeks. Most of the benefits I mentioned in the post are still active - to a lesser degree, but they are. However, I do predict that something will break me one day. I kind of intuit a storm is coming... I've been noticing clues. But who knows.

Looking at this overall experience, how long it's lasted and how powerful it's been, I think that with further work "I" might really reach a more "permanent" level of highly elevated consciousness so that "I" can't be broken anymore... because there is absolutely no "me" left.

I will burn myself to the ground. With Love.

I hear your meaning.  Good luck with it, sounds like a very interesting path.

 

1 hour ago, Matthew85 said:

@The Blade Waste of time is a concept you are creating. You can enjoy being lost in the dream you are constructing or decide to awaken from the dream. Both are equally valid explorations. It's all up to you. 

Hmm, I think what you said is true, and partially untrue.  On one hand, time is a mind-made concept and is an illusion.  On the other hand, on the practical day-to-day level, your physical body is dying and you are running out of time.

You can let go of the concepts all you want, with great liberation... but, on some level, you're still tethered to your physical body and it will die, and possibly your consciousness along with it.  For this reason, I am a bit strategic with how I spend my time.  Aren't you?  Aren't we all?

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by The Blade

[Matthew85]

10 minutes ago, The Blade said:

You can let go of the concepts all you want, with great liberation... but, on some level, you're still tethered to your physical body and it will die, and possibly your consciousness along with it.  For this reason, I am a bit strategic with how I spend my time.  Aren't you?  Aren't we all?

@The Blade The physical body, yes. Your consciousness can never die. 

[Moksha]

29 minutes ago, The Blade said:

I will try to dig deep into this method and see what is revealed.

So, with the video game analogy, you mentioned that the key is for the character to realize the coder is within its code, but is not confined to its code.  How does one know that the coder is within the code?

It seems you have already begun the Neti Neti journey, by questioning and discarding whatever cannot be known. When you have tunneled through the conceptual debris that you have piled upon yourself, none of which is true, at the center you will realize yourself.

The character is an extension of the coder, in the same way a ray of light is an extension of the sun. You could say it is the sun, but not all of the sun. The essence of the character beyond the pixels that form its shape, is the coder, but not all of the coder. One knows the coder is within the code through direct realization. It is the only knowledge possible within the game, the resonance of the coder awakening within the character, and tracing its essence back to its origin. The entire video game is the creation of the coder, and the purpose of the game is fulfilled when the coder realizes itself watching it through the screen.

[The Blade]

On 2/12/2023 at 6:10 PM, Matthew85 said:

@The Blade Your consciousness can never die. 

How do you know?

On 2/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, Moksha said:

It seems you have already begun the Neti Neti journey, by questioning and discarding whatever cannot be known. When you have tunneled through the conceptual debris that you have piled upon yourself, none of which is true, at the center you will realize yourself.

The character is an extension of the coder, in the same way a ray of light is an extension of the sun. You could say it is the sun, but not all of the sun. The essence of the character beyond the pixels that form its shape, is the coder, but not all of the coder. One knows the coder is within the code through direct realization. It is the only knowledge possible within the game, the resonance of the coder awakening within the character, and tracing its essence back to its origin. The entire video game is the creation of the coder, and the purpose of the game is fulfilled when the coder realizes itself watching it through the screen.

"The character is an extension of the coder, in the same way a ray of light is an extension of the sun. You could say it is the sun, but not all of the sun."  I think the sun and sunbeam is probably a more clear analogy with more parallels.  I heard Eckhart make a very similar comparison in one of his talks.  I do have a couple of questions regarding your statements:

1. "One only knows the coder is within the code through direct realization."  So, the only way to know this truth is to experience it?  Beyond pure experience, is there any other evidence which you can pull back from the realization?  I do understand that this may be an unfalsifiable truth.  These are rare, but an example of an unfalsifiable truth would be the statement "I am conscious".  You know damn well it's true, because you're experiencing it, but there's no possible way of actually proving it.
    
2. You'd think, given it is such a profound experience with incredible cosmic scope, that one would come back from an awakening with something of unique value.  In at least one of Leo's awakening videos, he mentioned something along the lines of experiencing the creation and the lives of all other lifeforms.  This would be a very easy thing to prove true - simply state something only another person should know.  But this hasn't been done, so claims like that seem unfounded.  Are we sure that these experiences don't simply feel as if they are happening, but they actually aren't?  I know that particular example is easy to poke at, but I've heard of plenty of falsifiable claims being made by people who have had god-realization like experiences.  You seem quite well read on the subject, do you have examples of unique value being pulled directly from these kinds of experiences?
    
3. "The entire video game is the creation of the coder, and the purpose of the game is fulfilled when the coder realizes itself watching it through the screen."  This is the primary issue I have with the path of god-realization.  Let's say these realizations are true.  Think of a video game programmer, or coder, in real life.  Would he really want to have spent all of his time creating a beautiful, terrifying, wonderous video game, just to have the gamers not actually play the game, but hack into the back-end in order to get a glimpse of the code?
   
   If you're saying that the whole point of the game is to get a glimpse of the code (and see yourself as the coder), well, perhaps.  However, I can't help but feel that the meaning of a game is to play the game, to be immersed in all of its details, and challenges, and emotional undulations.  The meaning of life is to live.  At least, I haven't found a reason to think otherwise.  This is where my emphasis on balancing internal and external fulfillment comes in, a focus on playing the game, on living a fulfilled and satisfactory life.  If the point of life is actually god-realization, then living a fulfilled and satisfactory life really doesn't matter that much.
   
   Many people in this field (and on this forum) state just that; the goal is god-realization, and living a fulfilled and satisfactory life really doesn't matter.  It seems as if this path contains some wisdom, yet at the same time carries elements of dangerous delusions.

Note: If god-realization is how someone wants to spend their life, I don't think it is a bad choice.  I don't think any non-violent lifestyle is a bad choice.  This may sound a little contradictory to what I just said, but if the meaning of life is to live, then pursuing god-realization is one way to live - you've fulfilled your purpose.  The point of this thread is not to convince anyone to stop walking their own path, I'd hate to do that.  The point of this thread is to help me determine if this path is worthwhile for myself.

Edited February 15, 2023 by The Blade

[Matthew85]

1 hour ago, The Blade said:

How do you know?

@The Blade Hundreds of OBE's. This answered many question's I had about life, reality and consciousness and resolved my fear of death. Death doesn't exist, it is a man made concept. 

[WelcometoReality]

On 2023-02-12 at 0:52 AM, The Blade said:

Great points.

Maybe my calling it overrated sounded harsh, let me try to elaborate.  I look at the person who lives for nothing more than the next car, yacht, clubbing experience, girl to bang, etc., as living in an imbalanced state, seeking only external fulfillment.  Living in a cave for 20 years in deep meditation is also living in an imbalanced state, seeking only fulfillment within.

I feel like a lot of people who study within this field are about 75-90% occupied with living the best internally fulfilled lives they can, which is good - but make room for studying external fulfillment as well.  External fulfillment is very nuanced and deep, and often goes against one's instincts and intuitions.  Not only is the person I described above (the guy seeking yachts) fully absorbed in external fulfillment, but he's pursuing it wrong.  I guess that's a topic for a different day...

It didn't sound harsh to me. ? In fact I share your opinion about it. I have a family, house and job. I live a pretty much balanced life that you talk about.

That said I see it as a subjective opinion. It was the "right" path for me and see nothing wrong about someone choosing to meditate in a cave for 20 years.

I get your point though and I think it's great that you share your view with us as a counterbalance to a more extreme viewpoint. 

[Moksha]

15 hours ago, The Blade said:

So, the only way to know this truth is to experience it?

Truth can only be known at the level it exists. In the cosmos, reality is relative. There are no absolutes on the cosmic stage. Do you know of any? Space, time, matter, energy, and motion are all defined from the perspective of the observer. Einstein saw it. Science is a powerful tool for comprehending relative truth, but it cannot prove anything higher than itself.

To realize absolute truth requires absolute evidence. Where would this evidence come from? Clearly, not from relative facts. It is only possible from the absolute.

You ask for unique value. The closest you can come to that is the appearance of unique value, when the essence of the absolute realizes itself within a particular form. But the uniqueness of the form is only an appearance. If ultimate reality is seamless and unchanging, how can anything be unique? Only the appearance of distinction is possible. When the absolute is realized, boundaries disappear. Even self-realization is only an appearance, but it is the closest comprehension possible to ultimate reality. The final step of enlightenment is letting go of the idea of enlightenment, after first having attained it.

I wholeheartedly agree that life is here to be experienced and enjoyed. It is amazing to contemplate the evolution of forms during the 13.7 billion years of the cosmos. Each step of the evolutionary process has been experiential and therefore purposeful, but ultimately the direction has been toward developing the capacity for self-awareness. You could say that experience is the immediate purpose of creation, and self-realization is its final purpose. With every mass extinction on the planet, life has returned at a higher level of consciousness than preceded it.  When the highest level is reached, the game is over and everything begins again.

This process is realized by mystics in every spiritual tradition. As Aldous Huxley summarized:

The Perennial Philosophy appears in every age and civilization:

• There is an infinite, changeless reality beneath the world of change
• This same reality lies at the core of every personality
• The purpose of life is to discover this reality experientially, that is, to realize God while here on earth

So what is the catch that keeps Consciousness/God/Brahman from instantly realizing itself, and thus solving the riddle before it has the opportunity to experience it? The proof can only be directly realized, and at least on this planet, this realization has only recently become possible in the briefest blink of an eye. The vastness of creation stretches backward, far beyond what any mind can conceive. Do you grok 14 billion years? I wish there was a way to directly show you, but like anyone else, I can only point to the reality which is beyond you and me, and the essence of us both. Neti neti will get you there, and if it doesn't, suffering will.

Although it is described in all traditions, the Hindu tradition is as close as any I've seen. As with every tradition, there is the surface interpretation, which is relatively meaningless, and there is the deep interpretation, which attempts to describe the ultimate. In Hindu myth, a Day of Brahma is a period of explosive expansion aka the Big Bang, where prakriti are divided into gunas. Each Day lasts for 1,000 yugas, which equals 4,320,000,000 years.

It is not literally true, but when you look at the deeper meaning it resonates:

The Day of Brahma ends after a thousand yugas and the Night of Brahma ends after a thousand yugas. When the day of Brahma dawns, forms are brought forth from the Unmanifest; when the night of Brahma comes, these forms merge in the Formless again. This multitude of beings is created and destroyed again and again in the succeeding days and nights of Brahma. But beyond this formless state there is another, unmanifested reality, which is eternal and is not dissolved when the cosmos is destroyed.

You are asking the most important question, which is who you are. Now go and find out 

 

[Breakingthewall]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:59 PM, The Blade said:

Embracing the not knowing is the primary driving force behind my original post.  I love not knowing, just as much as I love [the veil of] knowing

The thing is that we have to understand. We are in a labyrinth and we must understand it so as not to be caught in it. it is incredibly complex. It's a magical maze. It has layers and layers. It's a cosmic pastime. if you start it, you must follow it to the end

[Inliytened1]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:59 PM, The Blade said:

Well put .  Unfortunately, the statements you've made aren't about embracing not knowing.  Your statements seem to assume that you do know.  So I ask, how do you know?

 

 

By Being which is prior to knowing.  This is mystical.  But Pure Being itself can't be logically given to you you have to become it..meaning by dissolving concept and knowing- and who can "know"?  Ony a self can know and what is the self but an idea or a concept!   So Being is accessed (or one becomes Being) by dissolving the conceptual self.  This is done via deconstructing or self inquiring.  But also by quieting the mind through meditation and not "knowing" but sitting without thought.   

Edited February 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

Consciousness imagines death.

Death is a dream.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness imagines death.

Death is a dream.

Indeed ?

[The Blade]

To be honest, I was expecting strictly confrontational and dead-end input.  However, you guys have been great, and this thread has been more fun than I had anticipated.    I've got some counter-arguments to make to recent posts, but I've been incredibly busy and would like to take my time with them.  I appreciate the ongoing conversation.

[Exystem]

It's quite funny how god seeks for answers asking god why god should realize it is god and not just play around. And then god tells god how important it is that god should stop playing not-god and how it will improve gods life. Then god playing not-god really contemplates whether the motivation of a self-realization god told him to actualize is based on a contingent logical chain of reasonable thoughts that leads to a better state of god.

I admire the moment when god playing not-god realizes that god, who whispers about the importance to realize itself as god, is just a superfunny joke by god. That each so-called contingent logical chain of reasonable thoughts that leads to a better state of god and anyone who sells you the step-by-step-escape-route is just a fucking laughter.

Love it <3

[Patang]

@The Blade You're right, it's a waste of time, that's what your thoughts are tell you. Now, deal with your thoughts. Look at them, look beyond them. They don't know what they are talking about ??

[SOUL]

If time doesn't really exist, is it something that can even be wasted? Just asking for a friend....that may not exist either.