The path of "god-realization" seems like a waste of time.

[Chives99]

Theres no happiness in ego and survival no how good your external circumstances get, the mind causes so much misery , but if you want freedom from all of that theres a way out its called liberation

[Breakingthewall]

not escaping the ego's grip and opening to the wonder that reality is is just being a deep retarded. It so happens that almost everyone is like that, in this very strange human world, that seems a kind of hell of trapped souls who try to emerge from the monkey mud but stop halfway. A game at the end. 

[Moksha]

19 hours ago, The Blade said:

I do have the ability to be free of thought, it can be a very useful tool.  It does make me feel more clear, as if I'm no longer seeing life through an algae-covered fishbowl.  It's clean, true.  The way I personally drop thoughts it is through awareness fueled by a reverence for existence.  One-hundred percent observation.  When the soul's eyes are wide open, there's no space for thought.

Here, I believe we are talking about the same thing. Your description of seeing a tree without labeling it is a good example. When you let go of the mind's insatiable craving to identify, differentiate, and judge it is easier to see the sameness of your ultimate nature in all beings, even in a tree.

You are asking whether this seeing is pragmatic. It is, to the extent that it informs your approach in life. If you try to shape the universe to your will, you will continue binding yourself to misery. If you release obsessive attachments to desires and fears, and allow the energy of the universe to flow through you as the gift that it is, you are on the path to freedom.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Moksha

[inFlow]

@The Blade How do you want me to explain my Direct Experience of how I see reality? You can't.

When a business person walks through the city, he can see money everywhere. Same goes for me, everywhere I can see Love, God. I wish I could just give you the glasses of consciousness which I perceive reality with, but I can't. It's not possible.

If it's a waste of time for you, that's just your opinion. It's nor bad nor good. You choose how you want to live your life. If you have interest in these things then sit down, meditate, there are techniques given by people who attained Enlightenment/Awakening. Give a couple of years and you will reach it and then you could argue if it's worth your time.

[Schizophonia]

Is it supposed to have a "use"?

[inFlow]

@Schizophonia For a EGO mind - yes.

[Razard86]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:54 AM, WelcometoReality said:

Beautiful! 

What more is left to seek and realize after this?

His name says it all, Welcome to Reality. LOL.

[The Blade]

I appreciate the feedback, fellas.

On 2/8/2023 at 2:54 AM, WelcometoReality said:

Beautiful! 

What more is left to seek and realize after this?

Not sure.  Further depth to experiencing what is, perhaps... though I do think a relentless pursuit of more "depth" is overrated.  Balance is the key, to balance depth and breadth.  Aside from that, life content; after finding fulfillment within we're free to truly pursue fulfillment without.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 3:48 AM, Rafael Thundercat said:

@The Blade Do your home work bro. I am doing psycadelics for around 6 years, everymonth. I watched all Leo videos, some of the most foundation ones more than one time, I had read many Osho books,Zen masters,Buddha shit, and observing my fucking mind since teenagehood, having a lot lucid dreams and contemplating on how can these dreams be possible or explained. Some people here probably are working on this more time and devotion than I do. 

If you are making a calculation of your time or if this journey will be worth the effort, I just can say I am 42 and I still fell I have a lot to learn or unlearn and a lot to let go and surrender, because as far as I can predict, in the rigth time Total Surrender will be only option, resistence will be useless. 

Putting in the effort is one thing.  Getting something out of that effort is another.  Isaac Newton's work in alchemy, for example, was very deep and thorough and led him nowhere.  His work in mathematics and astronomy was also very deep, and led him towards incredible progress.  I think it is clear that some paths lead somewhere and other do not, regardless of the effort.  My question is, is this "god-realization" stuff actually going to improve one's life?  If so, for how long? 

*Even paths which lead to "nowhere" are still life content and add to one's fulfillment, so his time spent wasn't wasted, but it's fulfillment potential probably wasn't maximized.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 4:16 AM, Rafael Thundercat said:

Sometimes I do this simple meditation to myself when I start to enter in conceptual confusion:

Ok,you can sit here and conceptualize as you wish about what is God and coming with pre-digesested answers that God is Infinity,Shiva,Brahama,All in One, one in all... blablabla.. you name it.. but first to enter in this conceptual game, remember that You are. You are and this bubble you see around You in  moving, talking,shitting,working, all this and You included.. What is this? What is You.?

Try to make this without coming up with a pre-digested concept or parroting stuff you had learn in your formation.

You even must first Be in order to elaborate if something is worth pursuing or not. 

I think the notion of "God" is a muddy one, thrown around too much.  I feel that trying to construe experiences and epiphanies into being somehow related to God is likely to derail you from the clear beauty of existence.  Could you say that the beauty of existence is God?  Sure, Spinoza other pantheists do just that.  I'd rather just leave the term behind and just accept what we know [I am], and embrace what seems most likely to be true [our lives, our sense perceptions, and the measured and calculated (and yet to be calculated) cosmos].

I'm not sure that "realizing that you are God" is beneficial to living a more spiritual and fulfilled life.  Have as many 5-MeO-DMT trips as you'd like, you could still be flat wrong about the metaphysical conclusions you make based on the mental impressions and experiences you have while tripping (or meditating, etc.).  Is it not more pure to accept that we are unsure why we're here, or who or what created us, or what consciousness even is, but that we do exist, and this in and of itself is a miracle?  In short, this is what fuels me personally.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 5:13 AM, Rahra said:

Permanent God-Consciousness came with a price, but I would choose it again and again if I could. 

I will not lose, and I fear no evil, for God is with me.

God, there is no god or deity but He.

To Him belongs the most glorious names, and to Him we shall return.

I've heard of this price.  A girl named Suzanne on YouTube did a pretty good run down of the costs of truly losing ego.  I do understand the great benefits involved with mostly losing your ego and not letting it run your mind, and of the next stages of (if you have no ego you are no individual; if you are no individual you are all).  But I believe I have attained these benefits without the price, and, more importantly, without making existential conclusions which might be wrong.  You might be right, of course, but you might be wrong.  My favorite strategy when I don't know for sure is to accept that I don't know for sure, and worship what's leftover.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 6:17 AM, Sincerity said:

You haven't looked enough.

Here is my post with "benefits" I'm experiencing because of awakening. It's been only 1,5 weeks so far, but still. I feel like it's only getting better.

I've been shooting for God-realization and it's paid off immensely. And I'm only at the start of my journey, lol.

This was an excellent post you made, exactly what I was hoping to hear from someone on this path.  A detailed run-down of the benefits.  Thanks for sharing.  The benefits seem extreme and very pragmatic.  In particular, the acquirement of complete willpower seems very intriguing.

I am curious, could you keep updated with the long-term benefits?  Most people who attain such an awakening seem to living the good life for a time, but they tend to come down from it, and re-enter a state which is closer to their default state.  It is still certainly better than their default state, but not quite where they were during the climax of their awakening.  The awakened self seems to take a back-seat.  If this is true, and it has seemed to be true for most people I've seen on this path, then it isn't an excellent cost-benefit ratio.  We've all heard of people spending years, even decades pursuing this sort of awakening.

The brightest flames burn the fastest.  I'm more interested in an even, unstoppable bed of embers, able to turn anything thrown atop it into fuel for fulfillment.  Will this awakening you had both burn brightly and lay an unstoppable bed of embers?  It might.  I'd love to hear how it goes.  I'm pretty sure this is possible; I know he gets somewhat mixed reviews on places like this forum, but Eckhart Tolle seemed to have experienced the bright flames and also laid an unstoppable bed of embers.  But I certainly do think this is the exception, not the norm.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 10:34 AM, Breakingthewall said:

not escaping the ego's grip and opening to the wonder that reality is is just being a deep retarded. It so happens that almost everyone is like that, in this very strange human world, that seems a kind of hell of trapped souls who try to emerge from the monkey mud but stop halfway. A game at the end. 

Escaping the ego's grip and gaining the feeling of no longer being an individual but "all" of existence.  This is a practical, even scientific perspective to hold... yet, it is only a half-truth.  We are all and we are an individual.  Entirely and permanently throwing out the Ego would be to embrace a lie, and it would very possibly result in your near-immediate death and/or very immoral behavior.  In my eyes it is better to balance the ego-less true state of cosmic existence, with the fact that you also have the privilege of being an individual, and to realize that you wouldn't want it any other way.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 9:36 PM, Moksha said:

Here, I believe we are talking about the same thing. Your description of seeing a tree without labeling it is a good example. When you let go of the mind's insatiable craving to identify, differentiate, and judge it is easier to see the sameness of your ultimate nature in all beings, even in a tree.

You are asking whether this seeing is pragmatic. It is, to the extent that it informs your approach in life. If you try to shape the universe to your will, you will continue binding yourself to misery. If you release obsessive attachments to desires and fears, and allow the energy of the universe to flow through you as the gift that it is, you are on the path to freedom.

This was really well put, I get what you're saying.  There's a flavor of Taoism to your words, as well as Stoicism.  I do see the pragmatism you've explained here, I think these are benefits I've adopted as well.  I did this without identifying myself with God, however.

 

On 2/9/2023 at 3:40 AM, inFlow said:

@The Blade How do you want me to explain my Direct Experience of how I see reality? You can't.

When a business person walks through the city, he can see money everywhere. Same goes for me, everywhere I can see Love, God. I wish I could just give you the glasses of consciousness which I perceive reality with, but I can't. It's not possible.

If it's a waste of time for you, that's just your opinion. It's nor bad nor good. You choose how you want to live your life. If you have interest in these things then sit down, meditate, there are techniques given by people who attained Enlightenment/Awakening. Give a couple of years and you will reach it and then you could argue if it's worth your time.

Yes, It can be frustrating when you can't give someone a glimpse of your perspective.  I agree, my original post is just an opinion, of course.  An opinion that I suspected everyone here would disagreed with, which is why I chose this forum to post it.

I may play with this god-realization path, but my time is precious... I've already attained what I *think* are the benefits through an entirely different path, but I surely do not have any sense of "I am God".  I and all is divine, yes.  All is a miracle worthy of our utmost veneration, yes.

Maybe I'm being a bit hung-up on the way God is being used in this context.  Perhaps we just mean different things.  For me, a definition of "God" would be: the force(s) behind our consciousness.  Or: the reason we're conscious.

[Adodd]

@The Blade everyone will feel differently about this but if it’s true, that enough for me.

wanting to know what’s true for its own sake even if it isn’t practical. 

[Moksha]

45 minutes ago, The Blade said:

I do see the pragmatism you've explained here, I think these are benefits I've adopted as well.  I did this without identifying myself with God, however.

God can be a triggering term, especially for people raised in a fundamentalist religion that ensnared them within a crystallized belief system. I avoided using it for a long time, but find myself returning to it as a pointer to the miraculous and mysterious nature of life.

Enlightenment is letting go of all identifications, including identification with the concept of God. It's the Neti, Neti approach to inner realization, where each layer that is not you is peeled away like the skin of an onion, until only the unnamed essence remains.

You can enjoy the benefits of this wisdom, as it seems you have, without needing to conceptualize it. Whether it is called God-Realization or simply Realization doesn't matter. The litmus test of your insights is the extent to which they motivate you to release phenomenal addictions, and not only allow but celebrate the universe flowing through you.

[Sincerity]

2 hours ago, The Blade said:

This was an excellent post you made, exactly what I was hoping to hear from someone on this path.  A detailed run-down of the benefits.  Thanks for sharing.  The benefits seem extreme and very pragmatic.  In particular, the acquirement of complete willpower seems very intriguing.

I am curious, could you keep updated with the long-term benefits?  Most people who attain such an awakening seem to living the good life for a time, but they tend to come down from it, and re-enter a state which is closer to their default state.  It is still certainly better than their default state, but not quite where they were during the climax of their awakening.  The awakened self seems to take a back-seat.  If this is true, and it has seemed to be true for most people I've seen on this path, then it isn't an excellent cost-benefit ratio.  We've all heard of people spending years, even decades pursuing this sort of awakening.

The brightest flames burn the fastest.  I'm more interested in an even, unstoppable bed of embers, able to turn anything thrown atop it into fuel for fulfillment.  Will this awakening you had both burn brightly and lay an unstoppable bed of embers?  It might.  I'd love to hear how it goes.  I'm pretty sure this is possible; I know he gets somewhat mixed reviews on places like this forum, but Eckhart Tolle seemed to have experienced the bright flames and also laid an unstoppable bed of embers.  But I certainly do think this is the exception, not the norm.

Sure, I can provide updates. Not exactly sure where yet because I don't wanna resurrect the same thread endlessly. Maybe I'll make a separate post someday or just mention it in my journal.

I'll be honest. An unstoppable bed of embers seems like a pipe dream to me. I don't know what Tolle is experiencing and I wouldn't presume if I were You.

My state varies across hours and days. Sometimes I'm stressed out, sometimes I'm blissed out. Now that I'm 2 weeks later my high state has faded a bit (although I'm still experiencing most of the benefits to a large degree) and I assume it's going to fade even more. In my experience so far with this work it's 2 steps forward and then 1 step backward. One big cycle like this has been spanning like half a year for me usually. I expect the backward step to happen soon, since I've been experiencing the "2 steps forward" phase for the last 2 and a half months.

I can still be at extreme peace at times during the day and sometimes even recognize what I am, but to be honest most of the time I don't remember anymore. I have to focus at least. And it's okay! I feel like my work for the future is to accept the "lower states" as much as I possibly can, from inside out. If God Loves them, so will I.  I'll love "myself" to my God damn death.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Sincerity

[kamwalker]

Too many of you are delusional and confuse that with God-realization. It's one of the negatives of Leo's channel. Is has fucked up some of your minds and you don't even realize it. 

[Yimpa]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:37 PM, The Blade said:

Interestingly, I haven't seen anyone who practices god-realization end up any better off in any practical sense. 

Lmfao.

[Breakingthewall]

On 9/2/2023 at 3:36 AM, Moksha said:

Your description of seeing a tree without labeling it is a good example. When you let go of the mind's insatiable craving to identify, differentiate, and judge it is easier to see the sameness of your ultimate nature in all beings, even in a tree.

yes, and there are many degrees in the observation of a tree. from the purely conceptual, then the intuition that, as you say, the tree shares the same divine essence with you, to the total vision of what the tree is. the bottomless glory of infinity manifesting itself at this moment, the magic and harmony of love made form. seeing this in its entirety is extremely difficult because it requires that there be zero ego in the act of perception, where there is no longer perceiver and perceived. this is to merge with the wonder of existence, with the supreme art that reality is. this work is to get there. the reason? beauty and freedom.

[WelcometoReality]

18 hours ago, The Blade said:

Not sure.  Further depth to experiencing what is, perhaps... though I do think a relentless pursuit of more "depth" is overrated.  Balance is the key, to balance depth and breadth.  Aside from that, life content; after finding fulfillment within we're free to truly pursue fulfillment without.

Yes, exactly. Further depth to experience what is. It's up to each one to decide how deep they want to go. I wouldn't say it's overrated but depends on how high they value that. If they value practicality chances are they will pursue fulfilment without.

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

seeing this in its entirety is extremely difficult because it requires that there be zero ego in the act of perception, where there is no longer perceiver and perceived.

It is the seeing of the seer, the almost avatar whose eyes perceive the formations of phenomenal reality but whose light arises from the infinite well of itself.

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Moksha said:

It is the seeing of the seer, the almost avatar whose eyes perceive the formations of phenomenal reality but whose light arises from the infinite well of itself.

 

Yes, great description 

[The Blade]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:49 PM, Adodd said:

@The Blade everyone will feel differently about this but if it’s true, that enough for me.

wanting to know what’s true for its own sake even if it isn’t practical. 

I agree.  Truth is enough, even if it detrimental on the surface, there is too much inherent value in truth.

23 hours ago, Moksha said:

God can be a triggering term, especially for people raised in a fundamentalist religion that ensnared them within a crystallized belief system. I avoided using it for a long time, but find myself returning to it as a pointer to the miraculous and mysterious nature of life.

Enlightenment is letting go of all identifications, including identification with the concept of God. It's the Neti, Neti approach to inner realization, where each layer that is not you is peeled away like the skin of an onion, until only the unnamed essence remains.

You can enjoy the benefits of this wisdom, as it seems you have, without needing to conceptualize it. Whether it is called God-Realization or simply Realization doesn't matter. The litmus test of your insights is the extent to which they motivate you to release phenomenal addictions, and not only allow but celebrate the universe flowing through you.

A lot of wise people do what you do, and decide to use the term God for it best describes what they're experiencing / feeling / etc.  I don't think there's anything wrong with using the term, aside from, when used in certain contexts, it can mislead someone who doesn't fully grasp your personal meaning.  However, I don't think that'd be an issue here on this forum.  I'll still abstain from using it myself, it feels a bit off for some reason.

"Enlightenment is letting go of all identifications, including identification with the concept of God. It's the Neti, Neti approach to inner realization, where each layer that is not you is peeled away like the skin of an onion, until only the unnamed essence remains."  Brilliant.  I love this Neti Neti approach; I hadn't realized it was called that and was recently trying to discover the term, so thank you.  I think there is almost inarguable benefit to peeling away the layers of the onion... I am just not connecting the final product with "God", though I'd certainly call it divine.

"You can enjoy the benefits of this wisdom, as it seems you have, without needing to conceptualize it. Whether it is called God-Realization or simply Realization doesn't matter. The litmus test of your insights is the extent to which they motivate you to release phenomenal addictions, and not only allow but celebrate the universe flowing through you."  Ok, perhaps this is essentially the answer to my questions.  I've suspected that the benefits and the perspective gained by "peeling away the onion" are the same whether you feel that the man behind the curtain is God, or simply divine substance.  Realization is something that I understand and can get behind.  God-Realization... I'm still hung-up on, for I'm not sure mere awakenings have earned such a title.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Where I stand: regardless of one's realizations, agnosticism still has its place, as it is currently the most scientific and honest conclusion (or lack of a conclusion) on the subject of theology.  No matter how peeled back the onion is, "God" could actually still exist in the creator of the universe sense, outside of yourself.  Of course, I doubt this is the case, but how can we know?

Hmm.  If Realization were to use the analogy of a video game, let's say we're all characters within the game, and our universe is the map.  So, the more inner work the characters do, the more they see what we really are.  Code.  Everything and everyone who has ever lived within the game all share much of the same code, and are essentially connected.  Regardless, it would be strange for the character to make this realization and then say "I am the coder".  No, you're the code.  Divine?  Sure.  Connected to all?  That makes sense.  However, the coder could still be out there.

Maybe you can poke holes in this game analogy, I'm sure there's a point in it where I went left and you'd go right.

22 hours ago, Sincerity said:

Sure, I can provide updates. Not exactly sure where yet because I don't wanna resurrect the same thread endlessly. Maybe I'll make a separate post someday or just mention it in my journal.

I'll be honest. An unstoppable bed of embers seems like a pipe dream to me. I don't know what Tolle is experiencing and I wouldn't presume if I were You.

My state varies across hours and days. Sometimes I'm stressed out, sometimes I'm blissed out. Now that I'm 2 weeks later my high state has faded a bit (although I'm still experiencing most of the benefits to a large degree) and I assume it's going to fade even more. In my experience so far with this work it's 2 steps forward and then 1 step backward. One big cycle like this has been spanning like half a year for me usually. I expect the backward step to happen soon, since I've been experiencing the "2 steps forward" phase for the last 2 and a half months.

I can still be at extreme peace at times during the day and sometimes even recognize what I am, but to be honest most of the time I don't remember anymore. I have to focus at least. And it's okay! I feel like my work for the future is to accept the "lower states" as much as I possibly can, from inside out. If God Loves them, so will I.  I'll love "myself" to my God damn death.

Hmm, what I mean by embers is an underlying, unbreakable mental state which keeps you from being swallowed by darkness.  It doesn't necessarily mean you'll be chipper and doing cartwheels all the time, but nothing can genuinely break you.  The embers lay at the bottom of the fire, hardly noticeable, giving off very little light; these beneficial traits aren't very obvious to others, or sometimes even yourself.  But the embers have a tendency to slowly, surely burn up anything as fuel; good experiences, bad experiences, horrific experiences.  With these embers you'll surely still have days where you're dragged down, but not for long, and never very seriously.  Do you think your experience laid a bed of embers like this?

That sounds like a good game plan for your future, and the acceptance of the "lower states" is really wise.

21 hours ago, kamwalker said:

Too many of you are delusional and confuse that with God-realization. It's one of the negatives of Leo's channel. Is has fucked up some of your minds and you don't even realize it. 

I'm sure there is a lot of that going around.  It's hard to tell whose legit and who is not, but I do suspect there are quite a few people here who are legitimately practicing this stuff.

20 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Lmfao.

13 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

yes, and there are many degrees in the observation of a tree. from the purely conceptual, then the intuition that, as you say, the tree shares the same divine essence with you, to the total vision of what the tree is. the bottomless glory of infinity manifesting itself at this moment, the magic and harmony of love made form. seeing this in its entirety is extremely difficult because it requires that there be zero ego in the act of perception, where there is no longer perceiver and perceived. this is to merge with the wonder of existence, with the supreme art that reality is. this work is to get there. the reason? beauty and freedom.

This description is very close to what I feel, I refer to it as the "awe state".  However, I think the awe-state can be attained even without entirely losing your ego.  Ego doesn't matter, nothing matters in this state - you're too busy being in awe of existence.  This is a state one can dip in and out of with different levels of depth, depending on which state is most fitting at the time.  It sounds like you may have acquired many of the same benefits through a different path, through the elimination of Ego.  Did "god-realization" have something to do with it as well?

5 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yes, exactly. Further depth to experience what is. It's up to each one to decide how deep they want to go. I wouldn't say it's overrated but depends on how high they value that. If they value practicality chances are they will pursue fulfilment without.

Great points.

Maybe my calling it overrated sounded harsh, let me try to elaborate.  I look at the person who lives for nothing more than the next car, yacht, clubbing experience, girl to bang, etc., as living in an imbalanced state, seeking only external fulfillment.  Living in a cave for 20 years in deep meditation is also living in an imbalanced state, seeking only fulfillment within.

I feel like a lot of people who study within this field are about 75-90% occupied with living the best internally fulfilled lives they can, which is good - but make room for studying external fulfillment as well.  External fulfillment is very nuanced and deep, and often goes against one's instincts and intuitions.  Not only is the person I described above (the guy seeking yachts) fully absorbed in external fulfillment, but he's pursuing it wrong.  I guess that's a topic for a different day...

3 hours ago, Moksha said:

It is the seeing of the seer, the almost avatar whose eyes perceive the formations of phenomenal reality but whose light arises from the infinite well of itself.

 

Clean.

Edited February 11, 2023 by The Blade

[Inliytened1]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:37 PM, The Blade said:

Interestingly, I haven't seen anyone who practices god-realization end up any better off in any practical sense.  Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole?  None of it seems to be based in fact, but rather subjective, theoretical metaphysics born from abstract philosophy and mental impressions.  In short, it seems like a waste of time, and certainly nothing worth dumping faith into.  To borrow a term from Leo, it really does appear to simply be "mental masturbation".

Perhaps you can elaborate.  How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both:

1. True
2. Not a waste of time

Are you serious?  You make a mockery of God.  If you realized directly that God was real you would never be the same again.  The biggest thing is you will never fear death again because you will know it is an illusion.   You might actually want to jump in front of a train because you will know God is Infinite Love.  But I don't recommend that.  The reason is once you have become Infinite you also realize that your finite life is really the pinnacle of your existence.   It is in imperfection and finitude that God finds solace.   And thus you will cherish your finitude because in that is your perfection but also in that you can have imperfection.  So God can have his cake and eat it too.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Inliytened1

[PenguinPablo]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Are you serious?  You make a mockery of God.  If you realized directly that God was real you would never be the same again.  The biggest thing is you will never fear death again because you will know it is an illusion.   You might actually want to jump in front of a train because you will know God is Infinite Love.  But I don't recommend that.  The reason is once you have become Infinite you also realize that your finite life is really the pinnacle of your existence.   It is in imperfection and finitude that God finds solace.   And thus you will cherish your finitude because in that is your perfection but also in that you can have imperfection.  So God can have his cake and eat it too.

that makes so much sense